Author Topic: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference  (Read 5493 times)

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Qvaak

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Re: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2011, 04:06:54 am »
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There is another verb where the -o- appears as well that I remember. We have samven that means numerous and that turns into the verb samvenolat which mean "to surpass".

Pairs (or near pairs) we have

astat v. to say
astolat v. to say

charat v. to hear
charolat v. to understand

addrivat v. to kill
drivolat v. to die

gende n. rip
gendolat v. to rip

kemat v. to conjoin, to marry (someone to someone else, the latter is preceded by /ma/
kemolat v. to marry someone (use the preposition ma)

samvolat v. to break (when something breaks)
samvenolat v. to surpass
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

ingsve

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Re: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2011, 04:54:08 am »
Quote
There is another verb where the -o- appears as well that I remember. We have samven that means numerous and that turns into the verb samvenolat which mean "to surpass".

Pairs (or near pairs) we have

astat v. to say
astolat v. to say

charat v. to hear
charolat v. to understand

addrivat v. to kill
drivolat v. to die

gende n. rip
gendolat v. to rip

kemat v. to conjoin, to marry (someone to someone else, the latter is preceded by /ma/
kemolat v. to marry someone (use the preposition ma)

samvolat v. to break (when something breaks)
samvenolat v. to surpass

Well, all of those aren't true pairs. Samvolat and samvenolat are not related at all. Samvolat comes from the stem samv and relates to breaking. Samvenolat derives from samven which is a word that means numerous which in turn is a similative (-ven) of the word san (the /n/ changes to an /m/) which means heap.

Also gende is a noun so it makes more sense to compare gendolat with gendat instead. Both means to rip but what the difference between them is is unknown. We also have aggendat (also "to rip") which is the verb for when something rips.

Astat mean "to say" but astolat means "to speak" so there is a slight difference in meaning.

It would be intersting to ask David about the derivation of these words as see where the -o- comes from.
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Qvaak

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Re: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2011, 05:50:56 am »
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    kemolat -past-> kemo -past negative-> (vos) kemoo
    kemat -past-> kem -past negative-> (vos) kemo
    No. I don't think so.

I don't see why that would be wrong. It seems correct.
Actually I agree. That was stupid of me. It should be anything but strange for me to see words with same morphological background end up homonyms when inflected in different ways. We (finns, still) do it a lot. It's not terribly misleading, though allows for a large set of puns. ...oooo! When do we get our first puns in Dothraki?

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Is kifindirgi always the fixed form for "why"? If so, it's the longest WH-word I've ever seen in any language.
Wherefrom and wherefore are just a letter shorter. Finnish has eg. millaisella, ~with what kind of. Compound structures and suffixes make words long.

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Well, all of those aren't true pairs.
True. I didn't mean them to be. Just stuff I thought might be relevant to compare

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Samvolat and samvenolat are not related at all. Samvolat comes from the stem samv  and relates to breaking. Samvenolat derives from samven which is a word that means numerous which in turn is a similative (-ven) of the word san (the /n/ changes to an /m/) which means heap.
Oh my. You always seem to have some serious insight. If I've read that from somewhere before, I have no recollection. Both samvolat and samvenolat are suffixed -o-lat, so maybe there are corresponding words samvat and samvenat. Maybe sometimes there aren't.
Still, are you sure they are not related at all? Samven might well derive from san. Like heapify, multiply or piecefy. "Multiply that vase!" "Fine." *CRASH* "Now it's multiple."

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Also gende is a noun so it makes more sense to compare gendolat with gendat instead.
I meant to. Crappy cut and pasting. Sorry.

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Astat mean "to say" but astolat means "to speak" so there is a slight difference in meaning.
They are both "to say" in the wiki's vocabulary. I'll adjust that if you didn't already. It's time to get my hands dirty helping with the wiki anyway.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 06:35:49 am by Qvaak »
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

ingsve

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Re: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2011, 06:17:30 am »
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Samvolat and samvenolat are not related at all. Samvolat comes from the stem samv  and relates to breaking. Samvenolat derives from samven which is a word that means numerous which in turn is a similative (-ven) of the word san (the /n/ changes to an /m/) which means heap.
Oh my. You always seem to have some serious insight. If I've read that from somewhere before, I have no recollection. Both samvolat and samvenolat are suffixed -o-lat, so maybe there are corresponding words samvat and samvenat. Maybe sometimes there aren't.
Still, are you sure they are not related at all? Samven might well derive from san. Like heapify, multiply or piecefy. "Multiply that vase!" "Fine." *CRASH* "Now it's multiple."

Ya, I'm sure. I made the same mistake in an IRC chat with David and that's when he explained the etymology of the words.

[2011-02-20 23:01:46] <ingsve> one word use I saw seemed like it was perhaps taken from english...you tweeted "Asshekh Dothraki samveno 2,300 as" which I think means today dothraki broke 2300 words?
[2011-02-20 23:02:23] <ingsve> if that translation is correct then the use of the word break there is the same as in english right?
[2011-02-20 23:02:42] <DavidJPeterson> No, that's not related to "break">
[2011-02-20 23:02:57] <DavidJPeterson> Oh, ha, ha.
[2011-02-20 23:03:00] <DavidJPeterson> Wow, those words are close.
[2011-02-20 23:03:05] <DavidJPeterson> Total coincidence, though.
[2011-02-20 23:03:10] <ingsve> cool
[2011-02-20 23:03:22] <DavidJPeterson> An appropriate definition for that would be "surpass"
[2011-02-20 23:03:39] <ingsve> ah ok
[2011-02-20 23:03:57] <ingsve> is the word samvo in the past tense even?
[2011-02-20 23:04:26] <DavidJPeterson> Yep.
[2011-02-20 23:04:56] <ingsve> well, that's what happens when we try to figure out translations...answer: gief more info
[2011-02-20 23:05:04] <DavidJPeterson> In fact, since I haven't talked about any other Dothraki words, I can talk about how that word works.
[2011-02-20 23:05:24] <DavidJPeterson> It derives from "san", which is a word for a heap or a pile.
[2011-02-20 23:06:03] <DavidJPeterson> Then there's the /-ven/ suffix which changes the "n" to an "m".
[2011-02-20 23:06:13] <DavidJPeterson> Has there been a definition for the /-ven/ suffix up anywhere yet?
[2011-02-20 23:06:45] <ingsve> nope
[2011-02-20 23:06:56] <DavidJPeterson> Been any words with that one, at least?
[2011-02-20 23:07:02] <ingsve> verven
[2011-02-20 23:07:19] <ingsve> if that is an example if-ven
[2011-02-20 23:07:25] <DavidJPeterson> Ah, yeah, that's one.
[2011-02-20 23:07:38] <DavidJPeterson> Looks like there's one more, but it's opaque...
[2011-02-20 23:07:43] <ingsve> gizikhven as well
[2011-02-20 23:08:00] <DavidJPeterson> Oh, three of them, then!
[2011-02-20 23:08:18] <DavidJPeterson> Heh, heh. Forgot about my candy army.
[2011-02-20 23:08:21] <ingsve> qosarvenikh
[2011-02-20 23:09:20] <ingsve> vezhveni is probably an example as well
[2011-02-20 23:09:26] <DavidJPeterson> Oh, absolutely.
[2011-02-20 23:09:32] <DavidJPeterson> Didn't know that one had come out.
[2011-02-20 23:09:33] <ingsve> stallion-ven-i
[2011-02-20 23:09:59] <ingsve> it was in the latest dothraki post I think
[2011-02-20 23:10:02] <DavidJPeterson> And /-ven/ is most often a kind of "similative", if that's even a word.
[2011-02-20 23:10:49] <ingsve> sort of like the suffix -like in english?
[2011-02-20 23:10:55] <ingsve> stallionlike
[2011-02-20 23:11:23] <DavidJPeterson> Yeah, kind of. It was inspired by a favorite prefix of mine in Kamakawi.
[2011-02-20 23:12:23] <DavidJPeterson> Though it's etymology is different.
[2011-02-20 23:13:11] <DavidJPeterson> So "samven" is like "numerous".
[2011-02-20 23:13:36] <ingsve> ok
[2011-02-20 23:13:48] <ingsve> "like having heaps"
[2011-02-20 23:14:13] <DavidJPeterson> Indeed. Heapish like sheep.
[2011-02-20 23:15:04] <DavidJPeterson> Then, through metaphorical extension, /samvenolat/ came to mean "to surpass".
[2011-02-20 23:16:19] <ingsve> ya, that is rather close to samvolat especially when the past tense is samveno
[2011-02-20 23:17:47] <DavidJPeterson> Ultimately, they come from two different sources, of course. The root /samv/ was originally *samb.
[2011-02-20 23:18:01] <DavidJPeterson> Whereas the "v" in "ven" was originally a *v.
[2011-02-20 23:18:19] <ingsve> ah ok
[2011-02-20 23:18:24] <DavidJPeterson> Heh, heh… That's funny. Never noticed that.
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Qvaak

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Re: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2011, 01:48:03 pm »
That a certain confirmation if I ever saw one.
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Qvaak

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Re: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2011, 07:33:32 pm »
I just got through Mawizzi Fin Zal Kemolat ma Yesisoon. It's been a long time since this was current, yes. I don't use time in a linear fashion like some boring human being. I wonder on which decade I find myself when I've read the series' dialogue through.

Some funny notions:
Ver seems to be a noun for 'wolf'. So verven, 'violent', would literally be 'wolf-like'. Nice.

Ven, 'like', seems to function not just as a suffix, but as a separate word too. It seems to even have very nice and dothraki-like structure for compairing the sameness of things: ven (the first thing to compare) ven (the second thing). And you can derive other words from it, too. Venikh is apparently a resultative of ven and seems quite logically to mean 'likeness' or 'form'.

I can't get my head around that nemo structure. Does it have something to do with passive? Does it have somethig to do with negative? I'm sure I don't know.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 06:16:22 pm by Qvaak »
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ingsve

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Re: Davis Petersons talk at the Language Creation Conference
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2011, 11:58:09 pm »
I just got through Mawizzi Fin Zal Kemolat ma Yesisoon. It's been a long time since this was current, yes. I don't use time in a linear fashion like some boring human being. I wonder on which decade I find myself when I've read the series' dialogue through.

Some funny notions:
Ver seems to be a noun for 'wolf'. So verven, 'violent', would literally be 'wolf-like'. Nice.

Ven, 'like', seems to function not just as a suffix, but as a separate word too. It seems to even have very nice and dothraki-like structure for compairing the sameness of things: ven (the first thing to compare) ven (the second thing). And you can derive other words from it, too. Venikh is apparently a resultative of ven and seems quite logically to mean 'likeness'.

I can't get my head around that nemo structure. Does it have something to do with passive? Does it have somethig to do with negative? I'm sure I don't know.

I haven't gotten through all the details of that text yet so can't really comment much. We are allowed to use both texts in hte wiki however so I was thinking about doing a complete gloss of them for the wiki.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly