Author Topic: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]  (Read 20106 times)

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Jasi

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2013, 02:58:40 pm »
Thanks for your compliment Hrakkar; I totally heard the sound from Legend of Zelda when you open a chest in my head.

I either mistyped Anha vos akkelenok or my auto-correct got in the way (I'm on an iPad and have had to go back twice already because it turns vos into "vow" and akkelenok into "allele ok" (which is still retarded; who puts those two words together)?

You're right about maybe taking on a task too large for a beginner. I actually thought riddles would be easier than song lyrics (which also came to mind), but I don't know the language well enough to play around with it like I am (and like you said, the language has a limited vocabulary).  Hrm...

What if I just grab a book and start pulling quotes from it? So I can keep trying to get the grammatical structure right, but don't have to agonize so much over whether or not I've kept the whimsy intact.  Perhaps a book that every one of us owns...  8)





Annnnnnnd it just clicked, ingsve (thank you, and thank you for the link)!  I've been trying to get to the roots of these words by dropping the last few letters. But I forgot about the beginning...
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 03:00:12 pm by Jasi »

Qvaak

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2013, 03:02:34 pm »
Quote
Anha astak.  Ajjin me samvae.  Fini me?
"I speak. Now it is broken. What is it?"
It's a good wording and save for one little thing should be perfectly OK. And that one thing is that as I said earlier, I had doubts about samvalat. Now that I have had some time to turn these ol' rusty cogs I call my brain, I'm nearly almost absolutely sure that samva is indeed a very rare irregular epenthesis specimen. The discussion of why and how and what the heck I'll skip for now, and I think the thing is fully explained only in the backlog of IRC conversations, so I'll just recommend you to trust me on this: it's samvat, not samvalat, and thus would chance to conjugate back to samva in the above situation.

Instead, let's explore the text a bit further. If not to make the text better, perhaps just to better understand, what choices are made in the text and what it exactly means. And here we get right back to samva. There are three closely related verb forms available to us, and all work in one way or another. Above we used the simplest (well, it was the only one not in the dictionary and turned out to be horribly trecherous pest, so the simplicity can be argued, but as a general rule, these statives should be very dependable and easy to use and derive), a stative verb form of an adjective. This gives us "to be broken" in adjective-like sense, a bit the same as "to be green". So me samva is close in meaning to "it is in pieces". If you think of the English version "it is broken" as a passivized version of "someone broke it", the sense is quite different.

A magician: "I put this glass in this pouch" *puts a glass in a pouch*
"I hit the pouch with a hammer!" *hits the pouch with a hammer*
"And look!" *pours glass shards from the pouch*
"Now the glass is broken!"

This is the general pattern in which our sentence works. Change the "I hit the pouch with a hammer" to "I pour green paint in the pouch" and you'll get "now the glass is green" - the syntax works the same because "is green" and "is broken" are the same kind of stative expressions.

Now if we change our sentence slightly: "when I speak, it is broken" the stative would not make sense anymore. The stative does not inform us of any kind of change, does not describe any kind of occurence. It's just a note of a fact. "when I speak, it is green" does not make sense, we'd need "when I speak it turns green" or something similar. And the same goes for "to be broken"; we need to change it to "to become broken", "to break" and this is expressed by the verb samvolat.

Anha astak.  Ajjin me samva.  Fini me? works, but
Anha astak.  Ajjin me samvoe.  Fini me? works too, and only changes the meaning slightly.

But me samvoe means pretty much exactly "it breaks". That's a bit different from "it is broken". Can you say "it is broken" in the sense that it was used in "When I speak, it is broken"? Yep, you actually can. We have the third verb form, assamvat, "to cause to break" (which can be in English expressed with just "to break", but this is actually English craziness: don't expect such freedom in Dothraki). So "I cause it to break" is Anha assamvak mae, and when we remove the anha and subjectify me through passivization, we get me nem assamva, "it is broken". Thus
Anha astak. Ajjin me nem assamva. Fini me? might be a bit clumsy and over-complicated, but it's also probably the most literal translation of how "I speak. Now it is broken. What is it?" is usually understood in English.
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

Jasi

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2013, 04:04:15 pm »
Anha astak.  Ajjin me samva.  Fini me? works, but
Anha astak.  Ajjin me samvoe.  Fini me? works too, and only changes the meaning slightly.

But me samvoe means pretty much exactly "it breaks". That's a bit different from "it is broken". Can you say "it is broken" in the sense that it was used in "When I speak, it is broken"? Yep, you actually can. We have the third verb form, assamvat, "to cause to break" (which can be in English expressed with just "to break", but this is actually English craziness: don't expect such freedom in Dothraki). So "I cause it to break" is Anha assamvak mae, and when we remove the anha and subjectify me through passivization, we get me nem assamva, "it is broken". Thus
Anha astak. Ajjin me nem assamva. Fini me? might be a bit clumsy and over-complicated, but it's also probably the most literal translation of how "I speak. Now it is broken. What is it?" is usually understood in English.
So nem is added as an auxiliary to the passive assamva.  But how do you arrive at assamvat from samva?  I tried figuring it out on my own, but I don't think I got there.  Does it get the as- (or a-) tacked on the front because... it's now in the future tense (while samva, on it's own, is in the present)?  It will break if the first thing (the speaker speaking) has already occurred?

The reason I kept pressing samvae with the e at the end is because on the Wiki there's a table that shows that the second and third person of a present tense verb ending with a vowel ends with e.

Is samva is an ablative partitive verb? Because you can break something, but you can also not break it all the way.



... I overcomplicate graddakh.  :o I don't say it to question your knowledge; it's just how I learn. I don't build from a foundation: I'm like Spiderman, flinging out webs until graddakh starts connecting together.



Why is graddakh graddakh!?  :o



GAAAAAAAH!!!



P.P.P.P.S. Maybe my username should have been Idiot...
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 05:49:45 pm by Jasi »

Qvaak

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2013, 03:38:16 pm »
Quote
So nem is added as an auxiliary to the passive assamva.
Nem singlehandedly makes the sentence passive. "Me assamva" parses as "it broke [object missing]" - there's no hint of passive there.

Quote
But how do you arrive at assamvat from samva?  I tried figuring it out on my own, but I don't think I got there.  Does it get the as- (or a-) tacked on the front because... it's now in the future tense (while samva, on it's own, is in the present)?  It will break if the first thing (the speaker speaking) has already occurred?
We arrive to assamvat from samvat by a causative derivation. It's explained at http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Types_of_verbs#Dynamic_Verbs, though I think we should have it explained at our general derivation page at http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Derivational_morphology too. Dothraki use a lot of similar (and even same) prefixes, suffixes and circumfixes for different functions, so while /a-/ and /v-/ are indeed used for the future tense of the verbs, not every /a-/ or /v-/ prefix is connected to that. There might be a historical connection, as David has designed a quite a lot history for the language, and different affixes do not usually come just out of nowhere, but then again, there may very well be no connection at all.

Quote
The reason I kept pressing samvae with the e at the end is because on the Wiki there's a table that shows that the second and third person of a present tense verb ending with a vowel ends with e.
Ya. You were right at doing so. That's how it generally goes. If you have an adjective that in dictionary form ends in a vowel, you make it to a verb with a vowel ending stem (and thus /-lat/ ending infinite, eg.: davra -> davralat. And that kind of verb indeed does get the /-e/ ending. Sometimes, though, there are end vowels that are not considered to really be there. In most cases they are there to help in pronunciation of the word and they also are almost always e's. These vowels are just lost in derivation, so eg.: hetkhe -> hethkat. An advanced question (ping zhey ingsve): did David tell us, if singular past conjugation of samvat is samva or samve?

Quote
Is samva is an ablative partitive verb? Because you can break something, but you can also not break it all the way.
I'd be surprised if it was. It's debatable, if partially breaking is even possible, and the verb classes are mostly "closed": there are some verbs for which they are used, and no matter how well some other verb would fit the general idea of the class, it probably just isn't generally understood in that way. Of course we don't know all the verbs that belong to whatever class, so when we make translations, we quite often hazard a guess. The language isn't fully public, so when something is unknown, my guess is just a guess.

Quote
Why is graddakh graddakh!?
Dunno. AFAIK we don't have any other words from the same root.
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

ingsve

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2013, 11:28:31 pm »
Quote
Why is graddakh graddakh!?
Dunno. AFAIK we don't have any other words from the same root.

I think what Jasi is referring to is that when you type the word s.h.i.t. on the forum it comes out as graddakh. That's just a profanity filter on the forum that I had a little fun with. graddakh is basically the Dothraki word for s.h.i.t.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Qvaak

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2013, 11:16:09 am »
Oh, I forgot to give the answer.

Me athchakar.

Fun fact: Daenerys more or less says "athchakar" in Lord Snow while trying to say "athjahakar".

And here's one based on a Finnish riddle:

Jolino ershe; qemmo sash. Me nira mawizzoon naqisa. Fini me?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 11:55:55 am by Qvaak »
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

Jasi

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2013, 10:17:38 pm »
Sorry; haven't been on in more than a week.  I've been using a brain hack, and I'm crazy bitchy that I wasn't using it before (I used it for my anatomy terminology in my EMT class)!  It's called Spaced Repetition, or the Leitner System.


Here's what I've been doing.  I made flashcards of the A section of the English-to-Dothraki Dictionary, and 3 boxes marked Every Day, Every Two Days, Every Three Days.  Six days ago I studied the flashcards for an hour and then went about my day.  Five days ago I went back through the cards again.  If I got them right I put them in the Every Two Days box.  If I got them wrong, back into the Every Day box they went.  For the rest of my week I went back to the cards for about 10 minutes/day.  If I got the word right it went up a box.  If I got it wrong it went back to the beginning.  You'd think it'd be hard to keep track of, but it isn't: I just keep a calendar on my phone.  For my anatomy terms I had it at Every Day, Every Week, and Every Month, but that's only because I'd taken anatomy before and needed a refresher.  For learning new stuff, the 3-day system is working like a charm.

I'm using it to expand my vocabulary, but I should probably be doing it for my grammar.  :o



EDIT: I wanted to share this with you guys because Cracked ran an article about it recently, and I love that site and any excuse to promote it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 10:20:22 pm by Jasi »

ingsve

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2013, 12:33:45 pm »
That system seems similar to what the site Memrise uses. Someone created a small Dothraki vocabulary on that site: http://www.memrise.com/course/10040/dothraki-vocabulary/

If you're already making flash cards and if you're up for it you could perhaps create the cards on that site instead so that we all could take advantage of it.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Qvaak

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2013, 09:47:27 am »
Ya. Memrise is nice. I'm crawling though Toki Pona vocab there, though with incredible sluggishness. With Dothraki I try to keep my scholar's approach, so learning vocab has never been a priority. As soon as I get the words to the wiki's vocabulary page, I'm happy.

But memrise is pretty limited too. There may be some neat options, but for what I've seen it seems to be for matching exact words with one immutable definition. That's good for basic word learning, but Memrise might be hard to harness for use of learning advanced stuff like declination patterns and grammar. Doing things by hand certainly has benefits.
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

ingsve

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2013, 11:42:59 pm »
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Jenny

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2013, 06:50:54 am »
Seems like someone has already done a full Dothraki memrise course

http://www.memrise.com/course/81961/dothraki-words/

http://www.memrise.com/course/81964/dothraki-words-by-part-of-speech/

Yeah, that'd be me and my brother. If you notice any errors, please send me a pm!  :)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 06:56:05 am by Jenny »

ingsve

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2013, 09:41:00 am »
Seems like someone has already done a full Dothraki memrise course

http://www.memrise.com/course/81961/dothraki-words/

http://www.memrise.com/course/81964/dothraki-words-by-part-of-speech/

Yeah, that'd be me and my brother. If you notice any errors, please send me a pm!  :)

Ya, I saw that you had contributed but I didn't recognize the other screenname.

I'm through the first 100 words and no mistakes yet that I have found. There might be some confusion with words like mra which first appears as "out of" while it might be better known as "within". It depends on how well people know about the case assignment to notice the difference.

Nice to see you again by the way. You should stop by the chat and say hello to David some time. Though it's in the middle of the night for you as it is for me. The chats are on tuesday mornings at 4am CET. Though I'm not sure David was gonna make it this coming chat since he is at a convention in Seattle currently.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 09:48:03 am by ingsve »
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Jenny

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2013, 01:50:28 pm »
Nice to see you again by the way. You should stop by the chat and say hello to David some time. Though it's in the middle of the night for you as it is for me. The chats are on tuesday mornings at 4am CET. Though I'm not sure David was gonna make it this coming chat since he is at a convention in Seattle currently.

It's nice to be back! I took a break from both Dothraki and Na'vi for a while, but now I'm back on track.
I'll probably stop by the chat  :)

Havazhyol

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Re: Jasi's Journal [The Riddle Game]
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2013, 11:31:52 pm »
Ah, a riddler.

I wonder if the word qafak would be a good translation?

Here is mine, it's an easy one for those who are used to riddle, I hope declinasions are correct.

Azhas hadaen anhaan, ma anha athirak.
Azhas eveth anhann, ma anha adivrok.

Fini anha?


I totally heard the sound from Legend of Zelda when you open a chest in my head.
You, young lady, made my day. May the Triforce be with you.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 01:15:23 am by Havazhyol »
I'm back !!