Author Topic: Quick question  (Read 2752 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Najahho

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Quick question
« on: March 27, 2012, 04:04:45 pm »
I don't know if this has been mentioned already... but... why is it Vaes Dothrak?

I mean, why doesn't dothrak use a genitive?
Athhajar vidrie anna ayyey

ingsve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Student of the stars
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2012, 01:38:33 am »
I don't know if this has been mentioned already... but... why is it Vaes Dothrak?

I mean, why doesn't dothrak use a genitive?

Basically it's because it was a name created by George RR Martin in the books before any of the grammar was even created.

My guess is that David would probably explain the discrepancy with some historical reasoning in that the genitive form -i might be a recent development in the language while Vaes Dothrak is probably an archaic form but since it is a proper name the form has not changed. That would be my guess at least but ultimately the reason is that the things GRRM created for the books don't always work 100% consistently so some tweeks are needed when you create a formal grammar.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Najahho

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2012, 08:36:21 am »
Basically it's because it was a name created by George RR Martin in the books before any of the grammar was even created.

My guess is that David would probably explain the discrepancy with some historical reasoning in that the genitive form -i might be a recent development in the language while Vaes Dothrak is probably an archaic form but since it is a proper name the form has not changed. That would be my guess at least but ultimately the reason is that the things GRRM created for the books don't always work 100% consistently so some tweeks are needed when you create a formal grammar.

Thanks for the answer. You know, I kind of guessed that, but I remember that in the first days of Dothraki I read that it would have something similar to the Russian genitive, now we all know that's the inanimate accusative, but back then there was too little info and I thought something like that would explain the form. I thought maybe he had already addressed the discrepancy in some way, but also know that Martin didn't have a grammar in mind when making the names up.

I wonder if it could be explained as an apposition of "city" and "rider".
Athhajar vidrie anna ayyey

ingsve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Student of the stars
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2012, 09:06:26 am »
Basically it's because it was a name created by George RR Martin in the books before any of the grammar was even created.

My guess is that David would probably explain the discrepancy with some historical reasoning in that the genitive form -i might be a recent development in the language while Vaes Dothrak is probably an archaic form but since it is a proper name the form has not changed. That would be my guess at least but ultimately the reason is that the things GRRM created for the books don't always work 100% consistently so some tweeks are needed when you create a formal grammar.

Thanks for the answer. You know, I kind of guessed that, but I remember that in the first days of Dothraki I read that it would have something similar to the Russian genitive, now we all know that's the inanimate accusative, but back then there was too little info and I thought something like that would explain the form. I thought maybe he had already addressed the discrepancy in some way, but also know that Martin didn't have a grammar in mind when making the names up.

I wonder if it could be explained as an apposition of "city" and "rider".

I doubt it can be seen as an adposition. Having two nouns next to each other already has a meaning so in the strictest sense Vaes Dothrak could be read as "The city is a rider". I think one way to look at it is as a compound phrase or simply as a proper name.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Hrakkar

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 446
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2012, 01:20:20 pm »
As a proper noun, it makes sense, almost as an honorific title. The same thing occurs in Na'vi, where the term Toruk Makto 'Leonopteryx rider' (a term created by James Cameron, before Na'vi was created) is a title, but to describe a someone riding a leonopteryx would by toruk maktoyu where the -yu suffix drives a noun from a verb in the sense of someone doing the verb'ing.
Don't tell Khal Drogo I am here ;)

Qvaak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
  • Karma: +29/-0
  • someone
    • View Profile
    • qvaak-dot-kuutikkaat
Re: Quick question
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2012, 02:28:37 pm »
Yeah. Sounds like a plausible old fixed-form name. Pretty much like there can be X City or City of X in English; I'd imagine Vaes Dothrak is - in it's modern form - more "A City Named Dothrak" than "A City of Dothraki People".
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

Najahho

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 07:44:26 pm »
I doubt it can be seen as an adposition. Having two nouns next to each other already has a meaning so in the strictest sense Vaes Dothrak could be read as "The city is a rider". I think one way to look at it is as a compound phrase or simply as a proper name.

Well, I'm sorry to bring this up again but I think I was right with my idea: http://www.dothraki.com/2012/04/halahasar-tolorri/#comment-430

Here David explains Vaes Tolorro as an apposition of the two words, and gives as an example of another apposition the name of the city Vaes Dothrak, "Rider City" not that the city is a rider.

Cheers!
Athhajar vidrie anna ayyey

ingsve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Student of the stars
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2012, 10:26:11 pm »
I doubt it can be seen as an adposition. Having two nouns next to each other already has a meaning so in the strictest sense Vaes Dothrak could be read as "The city is a rider". I think one way to look at it is as a compound phrase or simply as a proper name.

Well, I'm sorry to bring this up again but I think I was right with my idea: http://www.dothraki.com/2012/04/halahasar-tolorri/#comment-430

Here David explains Vaes Tolorro as an apposition of the two words, and gives as an example of another apposition the name of the city Vaes Dothrak, "Rider City" not that the city is a rider.

Cheers!

Yes, it seems like you were correct in your guess which is good since it means we learnt something new about the language.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Hrakkar

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 446
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 04:42:21 pm »
And it might be that Dothraki city names (not that they have many cities) are always formed this way.
Don't tell Khal Drogo I am here ;)

Najahho

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: Quick question
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 07:28:54 pm »
And it might be that Dothraki city names (not that they have many cities) are always formed this way.

So it seems... we can begin translating our cities' names into Dothraki! Saying 'hi' from Vaes Davrachaf! Or Erinchaf? 'Good Winds' or Vaes Erini Chafi? Vaes Davrasi Chafi? It should be animate right? with plural
Athhajar vidrie anna ayyey

Qvaak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
  • Karma: +29/-0
  • someone
    • View Profile
    • qvaak-dot-kuutikkaat
Re: Quick question
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 07:06:19 pm »
Quote
So it seems... we can begin translating our cities' names into Dothraki! Saying 'hi' from Vaes Davrachaf! Or Erinchaf? 'Good Winds' or Vaes Erini Chafi? Vaes Davrasi Chafi? It should be animate right? with plural
Adjective should follow the noun in compounds as in everywhere else. Vaes Chaferin; Vaes Chafi Davra etc.
As far as we know the vowel ending adjectives don't get any plural or non-nominative suffixes, so not davrasi, just davra, I'd say.
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.