Author Topic: athahhaqar and ogat  (Read 3598 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hrakkar

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
athahhaqar and ogat
« on: February 05, 2012, 01:08:00 am »
I noticed as I was updating the dictionary this evening, that the wiki entry for the IPA of  athahhaqar has the wrong 'a' following the 'q'.

I also noticed that the definition of ogat 'slaughter' was updated. A second definition was added, which reads, 'to kill brutally as if slaughtering an animal'. These definitions are inconsistent with each other as described. Normally, when you are slaughtering an animal for meat or other body parts, you try to make as quick and clean a kill as possible. While any kind of killing is generally unpleasant, slaughtering an animal is hardly 'brutal'. However, the term 'slaughter' is also used to describe killing brutally or senselessly, often in a war setting. I think the definition should be modified to simply say 'to slaughter an animal, to kill brutally'.
Don't tell Khal Drogo I am here ;)

Qvaak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 370
  • Karma: +29/-0
  • someone
    • View Profile
    • qvaak-dot-kuutikkaat
Re: athahhaqar and ogat
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 05:59:42 am »
Hahh. Apparently I should not have dappled with the killing words. Ingsve offered some critique too.

While I agree that slaughtering animals is indeed usually as pragmatig and clean as possible, I won't give up without a fight :) My understanding of English might be a bit off... To me the large part of why "to slaughter" has (both in English and maybe consequently in Dothraki) an extension to killing people brutally and senselessly is surely in the cold ease of the killing: it's a killing where there is no struggle worth a mention and where the victim is given no more value or respect than an animal (the animal here is supposedly not well respected and valued as a person). But there is also an analogy in brutality: "slaughter" can be taken to go beyond just killing, to exsanguination* and evisceration, and while this is just pragmatic food preparation in animal slaughter, it is surely seen as an excessive brutality in killing a man.

*Dothraki probably slaughter animals by bleeding them to death, which, while actually probably one of the quicker ways to end the animal's suffering, does not seem so neat. Actually I read many animals are still killed this way (you need to get the blood out and the dead don't bleed so well), but nowadays & hereabouts they should be unconsious and senseless by then.

I guess when I added the second sense to ogat, I felt I needed to communicate that this "killing a man" sense was a secondary meaning (kind of metaphoric extension), not the other way around, so I added the cumbersome "as if slaughtering an animal".

The whole "killing brutally" sense is inferred from David's remark "Ogat literally means “to slaughter” (for the purposes of eating). It’s been extended to mean “kill” as the word has in English (and many other languages, I’m sure)," so the brutality is my interpretation and all in all rather questionable. Simple "1) to slaughter 2) to kill" might be a safer bet. The particulars might be better left elsewhere (to specific Uses page...).

One might just drop the whole second meaning, as "to slaughter" should quite accurately encompass the whole field of meaning, as far as we know, but this has a small problem - we can't by default expect a Dothraki word to have the same extented meanings as English has (eg. we know loqat means to hold, so it should serve in "Hold this rock," but in "He holds magnificent parties." it would be very much suspect), so the confirmation that the translation carries beyond its core meaning is not without merits.

To have only one definition, something like "to slaughter an animal, to kill brutally" would be, IMO, slightly wrong. If you have a word defined with a list of words, say "assikhqoyi ni. sign, omen", this should mean that the Dothraki word either has a wider meaning that encompasses the both English words, or that the Dothraki word has a meaning that isn't accurately translatable to any English word, but falls somewhere between the words offered. Ogat, as far as we know, should have no inherent indication to coldness, cruelty or brutality - those tones should only emerge from metaphorical extension.
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

Hrakkar

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: athahhaqar and ogat
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 01:02:48 pm »
Thank you, zhey Qvaak! Based on your comments, I will change the definition of ogat to read 'to kill and animal for food'. This is 100 percent consistent with Davids views on this word, and 100 precent consistent with how we have seen it used.

I fully expect that there are some words for 'kill' we are not yet aware of yet. After all, the Dothraki seem to be so fond of killing....

Perhaps we can discuss this later today on the IRC. I'll be there about an hour late, as usual.
Don't tell Khal Drogo I am here ;)

ingsve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Student of the stars
    • View Profile
Re: athahhaqar and ogat
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 09:05:48 pm »
Hahh. Apparently I should not have dappled with the killing words. Ingsve offered some critique too.

Well, I just thought that it was pretty clear that the word literally means slaughter and that the other meaning more has to do with use rather than actual meaning so I thought it suited better in the section that deals with specific uses of certain words.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Hrakkar

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: athahhaqar and ogat
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 01:15:19 pm »
Hahh. Apparently I should not have dappled with the killing words. Ingsve offered some critique too.

Well, I just thought that it was pretty clear that the word literally means slaughter and that the other meaning more has to do with use rather than actual meaning so I thought it suited better in the section that deals with specific uses of certain words.

Where is this section that deals with use, rather than actual meaning? Or, are you referring to the ability to add non-italicized text after a definition in a dictionary entry?

What would put as a definition/usage/extended text for ogat?
Don't tell Khal Drogo I am here ;)

ingsve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Student of the stars
    • View Profile
Re: athahhaqar and ogat
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 06:24:17 pm »
Hahh. Apparently I should not have dappled with the killing words. Ingsve offered some critique too.

Well, I just thought that it was pretty clear that the word literally means slaughter and that the other meaning more has to do with use rather than actual meaning so I thought it suited better in the section that deals with specific uses of certain words.

Where is this section that deals with use, rather than actual meaning? Or, are you referring to the ability to add non-italicized text after a definition in a dictionary entry?

What would put as a definition/usage/extended text for ogat?

I was referring to the Idioms page, http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Idioms_and_Phrases
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

Hrakkar

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 447
  • Karma: +24/-0
  • Dothraki Fan
    • View Profile
Re: athahhaqar and ogat
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 03:02:07 pm »
Thank you! Thank you! (I really do wish Dothraki had a word for 'thank you'!) I hadn't noticed this page before. Incredibly important resource, and a lot more phrases to memorize!
Don't tell Khal Drogo I am here ;)

ingsve

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 578
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Student of the stars
    • View Profile
Re: athahhaqar and ogat
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 04:02:52 am »
Thank you! Thank you! (I really do wish Dothraki had a word for 'thank you'!) I hadn't noticed this page before. Incredibly important resource, and a lot more phrases to memorize!

They do. Just use san athchomari yeraan.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly