Learn Dothraki and Valyrian
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Havazhyol on November 18, 2012, 03:11:32 am
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M'athchomaroon !
Here is the topic to find news, and/or debate about correct translations of Dothraki in French.
Shieraki gori ha kishaan
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Zhey Havazhyol, how are you going about building your dictionary. I have gotten sign-up information for you to use the server that currently runs the English dictionary. If that is the direction you want to go, please PM me and I will give you the information. I am also working on expanding the definition types, to give us places to put things like stem forms. In the future, there might be places for examples and canon/blog citations.
In the meantime, I was just made aware of another imitative (again, from the Na'vi community) to build an all-new dictionary system, using LaTeX. This dictionary would not be database driven (although it could easily be so driven in the future) but would be built up entry by entry in LaTeX markup language. Although it would be a lot of work to initially create, it would look better than any WYSIWYG word processor effort, and probably better than what we have now. The big downside is that it is not a 'sharable' project at all (at least at this time). However, I expect some of the really sharp programmers over at LearnNavi to correct this problem in time.
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Some news about the achievement:
10% of the vocab from the wiki is now translated (been quite busy lately).
There are some english words/definition (two for now) that will need some clarifications so the translation to french is 100% correct (me, nit-picky? noooo).
I will post them when I get more to ask :P
Hajas
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Ermmmhhh I just fell on a word in the C section of the vocab, on the wiki. First thing I had in mind when reading it was WTF...
choo [t͡ʃoo]
na. pika
... pika... chooo
:o :o :o :o
Someone with an explanation?
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Ermmmhhh I just fell on a word in the C section of the vocab, on the wiki. First thing I had in mind when reading it was WTF...
choo [t͡ʃoo]
na. pika
... pika... chooo
:o :o :o :o
Someone with an explanation?
That's just David having some fun. David frequently uses names of his family and friends to mean various things in Dothraki. Other times it's been something that has happened that inspires a translation.
For example when Charlie Sheen had his breakdown where he was fired from Two and a Half Men and was in the news all the time David coined the word shinat (inspired by Sheen) which means to burn out, to fizzle.
When George RR Martin mentioned on his blog that he was disappointed in the ending of the TV show lost David coined the word lost to mean disappointed.
The word kolver which means eagle is coined after Stephen Colbert who prominently features and eagle in the opening to The Colbert Report.
The word kogmen which means flawless is named after Game of Thrones writer and keeper of the lore Bryan Cogman.
As for the word itself pika is a family of rodents in case you didn't know what the word meant.
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Thank you for those clarification. It remind me the story of okeo that you already lighten few weeks ago.
Here are some words which need some clarification/confirmation for the english meaning, I copy/past the vocab from the wiki.
athchilar
ni. limit, lay, expanse (limit : got it ; not the others)
athdarinar
ni. lameness
chilay
adj. lying, supine
chongat
v. to be hard (not sure to understand this one on its correct part... ::) )
davrakh
ni. useful thing, app
dishah
ni. bark (dog sound or wood skin???)
drozhat
vtr to slay, to kill (done by inanimate objects, animals, or otherwise unaware) (not sur to get the unaware thingy)
efesalat
vtr to uproot, to scratch
That's it for now. Translation 30-35% done.
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Me and Ingsve are neither native English speakers/writers either, so giving good English approximations for Dothraki words we often have only inkling about is really hard job. For making good translations, it would help enormously to find the original contexts and get a good grip about the morphology. Neither task is easy. I couldn't myself find even half of the sources we have dug words from.
These are of course the best sources:
http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Season_One_Dothraki_Dialogue (http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Season_One_Dothraki_Dialogue)
http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Season_Two_Dothraki_Dialogue (http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Season_Two_Dothraki_Dialogue)
...or would be, if we had managed to move all season two dialogue from David's blog to our page.
athchilar
ni. limit, lay, expanse (limit : got it ; not the others)
Consider, that the word is a nominalization of chilat, so without the shift or extension in meaning it should mean ~"lying". It's from a line of dialogue:
Ezo athchilar Athasaroon Virzetha hatif kishi ~ Find how far the Red Waste extends before us
So "lay" in the sense it has in the "the lay of the land" and "expanse" in the sense it has in "we're in the middle of a featureless expanse" ... and the three words try to together approximate the meaning we think athchilar has.
athdarinar
ni. lameness
This should be a straightforward derivation from darin: lame-being, having a limp
chilay
adj. lying, supine
Well, this is a participle of chilat, so ~"in horizontal state". This is from David's Dorvi Zichome: http://dedalvs.com/relay/previous/lcc4results/1.html (http://dedalvs.com/relay/previous/lcc4results/1.html)
Majin oggo dorvoon, chilay sh'ejakh, ast, "Majin...elzikh yeri 'ai'?" ~ The goat's head, lying on the bank, then said, "So...is that a yes?"
chongat
v. to be hard (not sure to understand this one on its correct part...
Compare to the dynamic version chongolat, and you can make an educated guess, in what sense "to be hard" is. Seems it's pretty much in the sense "rocks are hard, pillows are soft".
davrakh
ni. useful thing, app
It's simply "useful thing". That other meaning, "app(lication)" is just for the modernized (ie. non-canon) language. We have some words that are nicked from tweets and such, where David has coined some modern extensions.
dishah
ni. bark (dog sound or wood skin???)
I don't know, where this is from, probably from the IRC chats, but on the Dothraki Word Groups page Daenerys is maintaining (http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Dothraki_Word_Groups (http://wiki.dothraki.org/dothraki/Dothraki_Word_Groups)) it's listed as wood bark, so let's trust her.
drozhat
vtr to slay, to kill (done by inanimate objects, animals, or otherwise unaware) (not sur to get the unaware thingy)
madmen, small children, completely by accident...
efesalat
vtr to uproot, to scratch
"Uproot" is the central meaning, the word is by derivation "un-carrot". Sounds like "to scratch" is rather separated extension, if I get it right. Might be better separated on vocab too:
efesalat [efesalat]
vtr. to uproot
vtr. to scratch
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dishah is from the swadesh list. I think we might have confirmed in IRC that it means tree bark but from the surrounding in the swadesh it seems like that also confirms it.
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athchilar ok
athdarinar handicap
chilay yes! I remember this story of the goat proposing...
chongat ok
davrakh app as those for smartphone?
dishah waf
drozhat ok
efesalat I separated the two translations
Thank you for all, it helps for my personnal english improvement as well . More to come ^^
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davrakh app as those for smartphone?
Yes, someone asked David on Twitter I think what a smartphone app was in Dothraki and that's what David came up with.
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Here is the second part. Some of those word are not totally unknown from me, but once again, it's better preventing than healing, so.
faqqi
na. corn bunting (a bird) Specific species of bird?
ferri
ni. hemp (material) I had strange translations for this one... a type of leaf, kind of illegal smoken when
dried... :-X
Halahisir
prop.n. The Arbor Certainly a place in the books, which I didn't saw yet (only read half of the first one...)
:-[
hammi
n. yak Mooo?
hrazefeser
na. herd of wild horses, "traffic" modern, as in car driving?
jaqqa rhan
n. mercy men as an executionner / fighter sparing his victim? (man full of mercy, pity)
jerakasar
na. trader's guild, "company" as "traffic" : company like firm, enterprise? (no, no, not the NCC-1701)
kane
na. lark joke? (or, to keep on with the word just above : kaaaaaaane ;D)
koalakhtihan
ni. eye-healer slightly wild and uncivilized ophthalmologist?
kohol
ni. bow the weapon, or the courtesy
lanlekhi
ni. eating spree for a special taste not a clue for this one...
lanqoyi
ni. killing spree not a clue for this one either...
lirisirazo
ni. bladed writing I rarely write with a sharped pen...
And it's done!
47 pages over 84, so 56 % of the vocab is translated... It's going faster than I thought.
Hajas !
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Here is the second part. Some of those word are not totally unknown from me, but once again, it's better preventing than healing, so.
faqqi
na. corn bunting (a bird) Specific species of bird?
Yes, I think so. David at some point look up a bunch of animals that were like to live on a place like the Dothraki sea so I'm guessing this is where that is from. Otherwise it's a bit of a random word for him to have translated.
ferri
ni. hemp (material) I had strange translations for this one... a type of leaf, kind of illegal smoken when
dried... :-X
Yes, hemp is a material made from marijuana plants that are low in THC. It's said to be one of the earliest domesticated plants.
Halahisir
prop.n. The Arbor Certainly a place in the books, which I didn't saw yet (only read half of the first one...)
:-[
Yes, it's the island located off the southwest corner of Westeros.
hammi
n. yak Mooo?
Yes, it refers to the animal.
hrazefeser
na. herd of wild horses, "traffic" modern, as in car driving?
Yes, the "traffic" part is non-canon and refers to modern traffic.
jaqqa rhan
n. mercy men as an executionner / fighter sparing his victim? (man full of mercy, pity)
This is a word coined by GRRM in the books. They are people in the Khalasar whose job it is to kill off people that have been struck down by the Khalasar in order to relieve their suffering.
jerakasar
na. trader's guild, "company" as "traffic" : company like firm, enterprise? (no, no, not the NCC-1701)
Yes, "company" is also a modern translation and should also be seen as non-canon.
kane
na. lark joke? (or, to keep on with the word just above : kaaaaaaane ;D)
No, a lark is a bird.
koalakhtihan
ni. eye-healer slightly wild and uncivilized ophthalmologist?
This is also a modern translation. Forum member Daenerys was going to an ophthamologist so she asked David in an IRC chat how that would be translated in Dothraki.
kohol
ni. bow the weapon, or the courtesy
Yes, the weapon.
lanlekhi
ni. eating spree for a special taste not a clue for this one...
This is part of a group of words that David created as compounds with the word lan "run". A spree is when you do something in a fast succession so an eating spree is simply eating something really fast because you like it's taste.
lanqoyi
ni. killing spree not a clue for this one either...
This is simply going on a rampage and killing lots of people in fast succession.
lirisirazo
ni. bladed writing I rarely write with a sharped pen...
This is a word to describe the writing David has in the header on his blog. http://www.dothraki.com/ (http://www.dothraki.com/)
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J'aurai besoin d'aide de francophones sur ce coup, en tous cas de personnes qui ont lu l'oeuvre en français :
- Pour l'île de The Arbor, au sud ouest de Westeros, tenue par les Redwyne, le nom français bien la Treille?
- Quant à jaqqa rhan, le mot miséricordieux convient-il, ou est-ce que GRRM leur a-t-il donné un nom particulier?
- The black salt sea a-t-elle une traduction particulière, ou est-ce qu'une traduction littérale suffit?
Merci
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First post of 2013 !!! 8)
Anyway, the translation of the dictionnary is almost ended (it's been tough feasts, in the past weeks), and it's transposition is 20% done.
I still have some words/definition that tickles, I'll post them in a few days, when I get less busy.
Hajas!
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I've noticed nobody helped you here with your questions. So I thought of chiming in... my French's not native at all nor specially strong, but I can understand what you wrote and also could check with the French wiki of Ice and Fire that the names are translated.
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I hope everything is working for you, zhey Havazhyol!
Niqqo, I am ready to get you going for Spanish. I need your login name you set up for the dictionary backend, and the ISO 639 code of the Spanish you intend to translate, which I think is ES.
I'm giving some crazy thought to translating the dictionary into Na'vi ;)
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Yes I need to talk to you so much. My login is Esploranto and I think the ISO 639 is ES, couldn't find it, but that's how wikipedia uses it, en.wikipedia and es.wikipedia, so I'm guessing that's it.
What should I do now?
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Zhey Niqqo,
Just wait a day or two for Tuiq to create a custom login for you. Then, you will just log in to that custom page with your username and password, and translate away! I hope you have read the tutorial page I sent you a link to about 10 days ago. If not, it is the thread 'tTanslating Taronyu's Dictionary' under 'learning resources' on the main LearnNavi forums.
Of course, we can also set up a Skype call to work through this. But not for the next few days. I have a terrible head cold!
I'll send you your login link as soon as I get it from Tuiq!
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Zhey Niqqo,
about the questions I posted the 10th of december, since I had no answers here I asked a friend of mine who read the books in french (pero, gracias de todos modos :D).
Zhey Hrakkar,
yes, it's working nicely, the interface is pretty easy to use, and since I translated a word copy of the lastest wiki update, I just need to fill the blanks with copy/past ^^ (ctrl+C/ctrl+V keys be blessed).
I just have one question about the short writing of proper nouns. Is there a way to change it in the french dictionnary? (prop.n. in english -> np. or n.prop. in french)
Hope your head warms a little ^^.
Fonas chek !
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50 % filled, halfway done !
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Zhey Havazhyol,
Tuiq didn't enable the PoS field for you to edit?
Great on being halfway done!
I have a good start on the Dothraki to Na'vi dictionary. I'm having a lot of fun with it!
When you reach about 75 percent, I will start a new master dictionary thread (so I can edit the first post when I need to) and add your dictionaries to the master list of available dictionaries. I think a link can also be added on the website home page.
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M'athchomaroon.
The dictionnary has been stuck at 76 % for the past weeks, for this I truly sorry.
Do not think I gave up.
The reason is that my wife just gave birth to my second daughter (and I have a problem with internet at home).
I'll get back to ot as soon as I have internet back, and some good sleep...
Fonas chek !
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Athdavrazar!!! Congratulations on the new life! That is as good an excuse as any not to write. Don't feel bad. I am stuck at 11 percent on Dothraki-Na'vi because of teo many 'drop what you are doing' priority projects. I am hoping that I might get a week or so of 'downtime' this spring to work on stuff like this, and it looks like it will not happen now.
However, you are far enough along that, you can start a new thread in the 'language updates' section, with links to your dictionaries. I am also planning to start a new master dictionary thread, and will put links in there for the French dictionary as well.
Niqqo is making good progress on the Spanish dictionary as well, so soon, we will have four different dictionaries for Dothraki!
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Well, I think maybe I should report too. I just started working on the Spanish version a couple of days ago and I'm on 73%.
I've been a little busy, but I'm confident I can finish it up by tomorrow or maybe before the end of the week. :)
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Zhey Niqqo, then you can start a thread for your Spanish dictionary, as well!
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M'athchomaroon !!!
the dictionnary is actually at 99%, now there are still a few words in pending, either due to an lack of english knowledge, or rejected by blue brain (and I don't understand why... ??? ). For the record, I had to remove all the french accent à é è ç in order to get the words accepted.
So, first part : the words that I need help with :
rhae mhar n. sore-foot not completly sure of the meaning...
zhey part. vocative marker I need help, cause I'm not sure how to explain it correctly in french
ziqwehelat v. to retch not completly sure of the meaning...
zireyeselat vtr. to offend, to bug, to jostle the translation of to bug slips away from my brain...
affesat vtr. to make someone itch not completly sure of the meaning...
tikkheya ni. verb, the instigator's half of the act (Grammatical sense) cf. melikheya absolutly not a clue about the meaning
melikheya ni. the patient's half of the act (grammatical, not medical meaning) cf. tikkheya absolutly not a clue about the meaning
sondra ni-B. dragon glass obsidian not completly sure of the meaning...
Emrakh Hrazef prop.n. Horse Gate once again I need help from someone who read the books in french...
ray (2) v.aux. to have (perfect tense introduction) I may need help from a french linguist here...
m' (2) elided version of {\it me-} a complementizer used to introduce subordinate clauses I totally need help from a french linguist on this one :P
hethkat v. tight; ready, prepared shouldn't this word be translated in english as to be tight; to be ready, to be prepared ? (c.f. hethke)
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Thez word zhor (1) keeps being rejected by blue brain , I still don't understand why.
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Some words are not accepted, I suspect it is because the third field is not filled, and does not need to be in french, here they are :
eyeli adj. spotted (e.g. the status of having spots)
eyelilat vin. to be spotted (e.g. the state or status of having spots)
kimikh ni. date (fruit of a date palm)
zhorrof ni. fig (fresh fruit of a fig tree)
e.g. date in english can mean the fruit of the date tree, a meeting with someone -you wish to score :P- or a day. It is translated datte in french, which only mean fruit of the date tree I.E. does not need more specification.
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Thank you !!!!
Fonas chek!
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rhae mhar n. sore-foot not completly sure of the meaning...
That's an iffy phrase from early days of Dothraki. It's hard to tell, what to make of it. It looks idiomatic or something, as it's used in slightly odd way in "khal rhae mhar" - no preposition, no visible case marking. Maybe it's a noun type expression like bigfoot, maybe it's adjectival like in the translation. I'd just drop it off. It's not a word anyway.
zhey part. vocative marker I need help, cause I'm not sure how to explain it correctly in french
What I do in these situations is I go to Wikipedia and change the language of the article. That often gives a good enough hunch on how the terminology works in the intented language. Maybe you have tried this already, but the results look promising to me:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocative_case) -> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocatif (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocatif)
English article discusses vocative mainly in the context of cases, but you should be able to extrapolate the general notion of vocative, and it seems the French article does not share this off-the-mark focus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marker_%28linguistics%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marker_%28linguistics%29) -> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marque_%28grammaire%29 (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marque_%28grammaire%29)
"Marker" is so generic term that it may be almost unusably wague, but it's also very correct. You might speak of particle or even preposition, I think.
Does that help?
ziqwehelat v. to retch not completly sure of the meaning...
My internet dictionary-verse says of retch
1. ( intr ) to undergo an involuntary spasm of ineffectual vomiting; heave
2. to vomit
and that sounds about right as far as my English skills are considered. No idea if both meanings are accurate for ziqwehelat. If you have no word close to to retch, I'd go with to vomit. That may be a miss, but we have to accept that. English translations may already be off the mark and when you translate, you are bound to push some words even more off the mark.
zireyeselat vtr. to offend, to bug, to jostle the translation of to bug slips away from my brain...
To hassle, to pester?
affesat vtr. to make someone itch not completly sure of the meaning...
As in "this wool shirt makes me itch". Itchy things make you itch and that's really uncomfortable.
tikkheya ni. verb, the instigator's half of the act (Grammatical sense) cf. melikheya absolutly not a clue about the meaning
This takes some remembering, so I might be talking rubbish... I think there should be two separate meanings,
1. verb
2. the instigator's half of the act
The former should be clear, but non-canon, the latter should, if memory serves, be canon, but rather mysterious. It's something similar to cause and effect: if you break a vase with a baseball bat, you hitting the vase is tikkheya ("task part") and the breaking of the vase is the melikheya ("occurence part"). So if you teach children, but they just don't learn, you might say, that tikkheya was there, but melikheya just didn't show up. And someone could argue that there had to be something wrong with the tikkheya, because otherwise melikheya inevitably follows. And you'd respond, that there was nothing wrong with your tikkheya and the children must be broken.
melikheya ni. the patient's half of the act (grammatical, not medical meaning) cf. tikkheya absolutly not a clue about the meaning
Whoop. I discussed this already. [edit: Hey, by the way, why doesn't melikheya have geminate? Have we copied to the dictionary wrong? Shouldn't it be melikkheya?]
sondra ni-B. dragon glass obsidian not completly sure of the meaning...
"Obsidian" should not be too hard to translate. "Dragon glass" is in-world name for obsidian (they call it "obsidian" too, but "dragon class" is older name denoting to the stone's mystical in-world properties)... so if you want to get "dragon glass" into your translation, you need someone who's read the books in french for this too.
ray (2) v.aux. to have (perfect tense introduction) I may need help from a french linguist here...
Ya. This seems harder to get right by a short Wikipedia dive. Perfect/imperfect disctinction seems to be accompli/inaccompli:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_accompli/inaccompli (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspect_accompli/inaccompli)
Dunno. Is that enough?
m' (2) elided version of {\it me-} a complementizer used to introduce subordinate clauses I totally need help from a french linguist on this one :P
Hahh. Yes. It's funny, as the normal unelided version is a prefix, not a separate word (though the difference is really flimsy), and thus is not featured in the dictionary at all. But it would be terribly unhelpful not to include the elided version, as you can't really tell that it's not a separate word, and as ma is elided the same way as /me-/, setting ground for major confusion. "a complementizer used to introduce subordinate clauses" is not even that good definition. /Me-/ is used to introduce some subordinate clauses, but I'm not too clear on the details. Seems to be introducing noun clauses, specifically. And I think complementizers are by definition used to introduce subordinate clauses, so the the explanation is probably tautological too. But hey, it's probably my writing, and I'm no linguist, so a certain level of clumsiness is to be expected. Just use prefix, if complementizer is a problem word
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_%28grammaire%29#Subordonn.C3.A9e (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_%28grammaire%29#Subordonn.C3.A9e)
hethkat v. tight; ready, prepared shouldn't this word be translated in english as to be tight; to be ready, to be prepared ? (c.f. hethke)
yep, it should.
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rhae mhar n. sore-foot not completly sure of the meaning...
That's an iffy phrase from early days of Dothraki. It's hard to tell, what to make of it. It looks idiomatic or something, as it's used in slightly odd way in "khal rhae mhar" - no preposition, no visible case marking. Maybe it's a noun type expression like bigfoot, maybe it's adjectival like in the translation. I'd just drop it off. It's not a word anyway.
That's actually straight from the book so the reason it seems strange is because it was GRRM who coined it. Since you need someone who read the book in french you can ask them about this word as well.
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Thank you very much Qvaak and Ingsve.
The translation process is now complete, Dothraki has now a full french translating tool !!!
I'm so glad I did it ! Online soon I hope !!!
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Now that this is mostly over I'm starting to think about a francophone version of the wiki, but I'm going to need help from other frenchies on this one...
I also figured out that "la garde de la nuit" had started a "mini-me" french wiki dothraki, with links to our wiki.
Do you think it's thinkable, or does the fact that they started one mightgive birth to a crowd of issues?
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I am finally back from my two week 'adventure' in Las Vegas. I ended up spending almost as much time at hearings and trials as I did at the two conventions I attended!
Zhey Havazhyol, you have done an incredible job on this. You are to be commended!