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KingAlanI

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Some phrases I've made
« on: January 08, 2014, 06:21:26 pm »
Some phrases I've made, are these any good?

Gaezo Rhaegar ma mahrazhkem Drogo - Brother Rhaegar and husband Drogo
Maisi khal Rhaesh Andalhi athjahaki rizh - The mother of the Westerosi King must be proud of such a son
Vezhven vazh zala! - The Great Stallion wants it!
Khaleesi asta ildates! - The queen says we strike!
Khal Rhaesh Andahli koalakeesi! - The Westerosi King’s healing woman! (I notice –eesi is an ending for the female form of some words besides khal)
Lajak Andahli Halah! – The Knight Of Flowers (I know Halah is non-plural, but Halahi, which seems like the correct plural, has a separate dictionary entry as ‘tree that can blossom’) * I use 'Andal warrior' for 'knight' in general
Rakharo ma Aggo thiri - Rakharo and Aggo live
Fekh nem Ave, Mai, Lajak, Nayat, Movee, Khaleen, ma Athdrivar – (The) Seven are Father, Mother, Warrior, Maiden, Smith, Crone, and Stranger”
Sekke davra ma kohol ma loqami! (literally ‘very good with bow and arrows’) – superb archer

Layafi asshekhqoyi - Happy Birthday, layafi being second person of layafat, to be happy

Qvaak

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2014, 11:33:57 pm »
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Some phrases I've made, are these any good?
They are good, certainly. Dothraki is rather detailed natural-like language, yet public resources are dominantly fan-made and a lot of stuff not public at all, so "good" is always a bit relative.

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Gaezo Rhaegar ma mahrazhkem Drogo - Brother Rhaegar and husband Drogo
We have one neat example of a syntax like this: Anha, zhey Drogo, atak jin. This is not core use of the word zhey, but seems to work fine and nicely binds the names to the sentence. So I'd suggest Gaezo zhey Rhaegar ma mahrazhkem zhey Drogo. It might be a bit iffy depending on how it's used, and your version is no worse try. Actually we have torga khali bharbo which does it exactly like that, simple and plain, so whatever.

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Maisi khal Rhaesh Andalhi athjahaki rizh - The mother of the Westerosi King must be proud of such a son
Agh. This could be done/tried in so many ways.
How would this sound: Athjahakar mra qora maisoon khali rhaeshoon Andahli haji rizhoon hazvena sekke.
The mother of the Westerosi King is pretty much mai khali rhaeshi Andahli (ie. "mother of king of land of Andals), but I'm a bit on the fence with the "king of the country" relation, and would kinda prefer ablative, obviously.
"Must" is usually translated with verbal auxiliary thingie eth, but here "must" is not used in the usual sense, so using eth should be off the mark. Adverb sekke works pretty well, I think.
"Mother is proud" could be done with mai vichomera or mai choma, perhaps even mai nemo choma, but this shifts the meaning a bit, so I tried to stick with athjahakar - it's kinda nice.
"Such" is a bit of a brain freeze term for me. I threw in a made-up adjective hazven (that would, I guess, be something like "that-like"), but this is hardly ideal. Maybe simplifying to haji haz rizhoon, "because of that son" would be more sure-footed solution.

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Vezhven vazh zala! - The Great Stallion wants it!
Vezh vezhven, literally "stallion-like stallion"? Nope. We have "the Great Stallion" from GoT dialogue, and it's simply vezhof.
Literal translation Vezhof zala me! should be fine, if the Great Stallion wants that "it" for himself. If this is more generic god-wishing, more or less the same as "The Great Stallion wants thusly!" or "It is the wish of The Great Stallion!" then Vezhof zala! is actually a very good idea. Perhaps you might also go with Vezhof zala kijinosi!

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Khaleesi asta ildates! - The queen says we strike!
The full English syntax would probably be "The queen says that we strike!" You can't drop complementizers in Dothraki, so Khaleesi asta m'ildates! probably works, and Khaleesi asta mekisha vildak! is a surefire alternative.
Or maybe the better interpration would be "The Queen says thus: 'Let's strike!'" and then Khaleesi asta ki: Ildates! would be the way to go.

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Khal Rhaesh Andahli koalakeesi! - The Westerosi King’s healing woman! (I notice –eesi is an ending for the female form of some words besides khal)
Koalakeesi khali rhaeshi andahli (or rhaeshoon, if that's how you like it - I'm almost sure we don't know it's wrong  ;)).
Ya, -eesi has something to do with females. DJP may have even explained, where it comes from, but if so, I've forgotten.

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Lajak Andahli Halah! – The Knight Of Flowers (I know Halah is non-plural, but Halahi, which seems like the correct plural, has a separate dictionary entry as ‘tree that can blossom’) * I use 'Andal warrior' for 'knight' in general
Ya. Dothraki language has a bad habit of sometimes losing derivational differences in some inflections. It's mad. It's a thing that really makes you question, if this could really happen in a natural language - and it still probably could. You might indeed try to dodge the problem by dropping the plural from "flowers", as it's not essential - Knight of Flower would get the message across. The question is, however, how you tie the halah to Lajak Andahli. Genitive would be a natural choice, as that's the core meaning of English "of". However, here "of" is not much of a possessive marker - much less than anywhere on the "healer of king of land of andals" mostrosity. And that's kinda lucky, because genitive never marks plural and works often the same way for animates and inanimates, so in genitive you would not be able to distinquish between halah and halahi, no matter the plurality. Haji would IMO again communicate well the symbolic and abstract relation the knight has to his flowers. Then you'd need ablative case, and that would actually differentiate flowers from trees only if flowers were in plural: haji halahoon, "because of flower"; haji halahoa, "because of flowers"; haji halahoon, "because of tree(s)".

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Rakharo ma Aggo thiri - Rakharo and Aggo live
I'd use the full conjunction system: Ma Rakharo m'Aggo thiri, but that should make no real difference. Note that ma is usually elided to m' if followed by a vowel.

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Fekh nem Ave, Mai, Lajak, Nayat, Movee, Khaleen, ma Athdrivar – (The) Seven are Father, Mother, Warrior, Maiden, Smith, Crone, and Stranger”
It's surprising, how much people mess with nem. Nem is used for passive sentences. Passive sentences are the kind of senteces where you can reintroduce the agent by adding "by" at the end of the sentence. "I was shot" is a passive sentence. It does not tell who shot me, but you can add that information: "I was shot by a government agent."
You can't leave conjunctions out of a list with more than two items, so while Rakharo m'Aggo and Gaezo Rhaegar ma mahrazhkem Drogo are more or less OK, this list needs to go m'ave ma mai ma lajak ma nayat ma movee ma khaleen m'athdrivar (or if we go by my proposals, m'ave ma mai ma lajak ma nayat ma marik ma kristasof m'athdrivar).
The way these type of sentences go ... for example "The weapons are spear, bow, arakh and whip" would IMO be said Vovi ma zhani ma kohol m'arakh m'orvik. But numbers are not usually used as nouns, so the sentence goes strange and sounds like there are seven of each: seven fathers, seven mothers etc. Maybe you could add vojjor for clarity: fekh vojjor m'ave [...] m'athdrivar.

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Sekke davra ma kohol ma loqami! (literally ‘very good with bow and arrows’) – superb archer
Words like sekke usually go to the end of the sentence. Davra would probably fuction as verb, though that of course depends on how this would be used - it's not a full sentence. We don't know the animacy of loqam, but I'd wager it's inanimate and thus does not have explicit plural - and leaving it to singular would not be bad either, as "bow and arrow" probably works fine. Ma used prepositionally assigns ablative...
Me davrae ma koholoon ma loqamoon sekke. - "He is very good with bow and arrow(s)."

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Layafi asshekhqoyi - Happy Birthday, layafi being second person of layafat, to be happy
We have a couple of corroborated solutions for this on our idioms and phrases page: http://wiki.dothraki.org/Idioms_and_Phrases.
I'm not sure, if you have a firm grasp on how verb conjugations parse. If Dothraki was a pronoun dropping language, as many languages are if they mark person on verbs, Layafi! would mean "You are happy!" Dothraki does not, however like to drop pronouns, so you usually need to say "Yer layafi." Imperatives, however, work without pronoun, so Layafi actually happens to be a proper meaningful sentence and is a formal order to be happy.
Of course in English "happy" is an adjective modifying the noun birthday. You are wishing for the birthday to be a happy occasion. Layafat, like most Dothraki stative verbs crosses easily from verb use to adjective use, so Asshekhqoyi layaf! would be rather promising version.
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KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2014, 12:06:03 pm »
wow, Qvaak for the win again.

I seem to be too tied to English word order, it seems on a lot of these.

I understand zhey, vocative participle, indicates that the speaker is talking to someone and the sentence isn't about that person, but this sentence is about the people named.

I thought that since Andal already has a genitive ending, I didn't need to give a genitive ending to the other nouns in the phrase. You seem to like ablative case. Yeah, chomat (to respect/honor) does have a different meaning. It seems that while you like 'pride', I shouldn't conjugate/decline it and I should put it at the beginning of the sentence. I think that sentence could work without 'such'. sekke (very) seems to work well instead.

Yeah, I figured there had to be a word for 'Great Stallion' that I was missing. Vezhof it is. I don't mean "The Great Stallion wants" as in a religious commandment, I mean it as in "God willing", but thanks for the distinction.

Yeah, since I started this thread, I added 'vojjori' after Fekh, as well as using the better words for Smith and Crone discussed in the other thread. ma, contracted to m’, before every item in a comma-separated list?

I agree trying to pluralize 'arrow' is unnecessary.
I've since come up with ovvethak (bow-shooter) as a derivative of ovvethat (to shoot with a bow) instead of ma kohol ma loqam (with bow and arrow)

I thought part of verb conjugation in general was including the meaning of a pronoun.

KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2014, 12:06:27 pm »
Some more I've come up with since I started this thread:

Yer chomae mae - You honor her
seems like a straightforward conversion of Yer chomae anha (you honor me) as a substitute for 'thank you', better than 'allayafa' (she is pleased)

(in context, it's a translated reply to the also-translated 'The mother of the Westerosi King must be very proud of her son'.)

Chiori lajak ondee esina shor tawakof – The woman warrior wears a different steel dress
(Interesting pun. I’d like to add a word for kind/sort/type though.)

Qvaak

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2014, 03:31:10 am »
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I seem to be too tied to English word order, it seems on a lot of these.
You are browsing the pages under http://wiki.dothraki.org/Learning_Dothraki, aren't you? http://wiki.dothraki.org/Syntax is the page to look at for word ordery stuff.
And, by the way, if you notice anything on the wiki that is confusing or might be done better, do give feedback. There's been very little done lately because new learnings are just morsels now that DJP is extremely busy with other projects and getting Valyrian rolling takes a lot of Q&A time ... but the wiki is not finished. I (and we) would be happy to improve it.
If the wiki has just bad language, that might be because the main contributors are not native with English. If there are problems that you can rectify yourself, please do. Just log in and edit.

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I understand zhey, vocative participle, indicates that the speaker is talking to someone and the sentence isn't about that person, but this sentence is about the people named.
Ya. That should be the crux of it. However, mr. Peterson has occasionally made sort of extented use, like in "anha, zhey Drogo" (he's not talking to himself and he's not calling the audience Drogo), so we're not sure, what the actual limitations are. Sometimes it seems more *name follows* particle than vocative particle. It's a bit confusing. But I think it is only used when the name is used as sorta bracketed addition. That would explain why it's on Anha, zhey Drogo, atak jin. but not on Me dothrakhqoyoon torga Khali Bharbo.

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I thought that since Andal already has a genitive ending, I didn't need to give a genitive ending to the other nouns in the phrase. You seem to like ablative case. Yeah, chomat (to respect/honor) does have a different meaning. It seems that while you like 'pride', I shouldn't conjugate/decline it and I should put it at the beginning of the sentence. I think that sentence could work without 'such'. sekke (very) seems to work well instead.
The genitive in andahli tells us that Andals have/occupy the land, ie. that the land is the land of Andals. It does not tell us anything about how that Land of Andals relates to the word khal - nor how that all relates to the word mai.
Ablative case gets a lot of use in Dothraki. This khal rhaeshoon Andahli is a questionable choice*, because AFAIK we don't know for sure what's right for there. Elsewhere I use it just because it is the right case to use.
Athjahakar comes from the word jahak, which is the word for Dothraki-style braided hair. It looks like its nominalization of a verb, but I have a vague feeling that that verb does not really exist (that sometimes happens). So, it's as noun as noun can be, and it seems there is no corresponding verb. Sure it's likely there's some verb with which to say things like "I'm proud" (and perhaps I'm mistaken and it's jahakat after all), but it does not seem we know of such. So yeah, I wen't with "Mother has pride," and that too happens to be a bit tricky sentence and not to be translated literally... :)

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Yeah, since I started this thread, I added 'vojjori' after Fekh, as well as using the better words for Smith and Crone discussed in the other thread. ma, contracted to m’, before every item in a comma-separated list?
It's actually fekh vojjor. Vojjor is inanimate, so you can't pluralize it (and, actually, you would not need to anyway), and numbers do not assign genitive - I think they actually do not assign any case at all, I think vojjor is in what ever case the sentence requires.
Ma is contracted only when it's followed with a vowel, sorry. So only ave and athdrivar.

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I've since come up with ovvethak (bow-shooter) as a derivative of ovvethat (to shoot with a bow) instead of ma kohol ma loqam (with bow and arrow)
Ya. That should work well enough. It's a bit vague, as ovvethat encompasses throwing as well as shooting, but I think it should work in right context.

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I thought part of verb conjugation in general was including the meaning of a pronoun.
This is very roughly true. I think you might think of it like this: conjugations are not what verbs are, it's what they do. English has a hint of person/number conjugation, as third person singulars get /-(e)s/ suffix. If you take a word like wash and conjugate it to washes, you in theory have included he/she/it meaning to wash, but you can't do much with it. For example creating derivative words like washesing does not work.
Dothraki verbs (and nouns and adjectives) participate in the flow of the sentence by bending with it, accentuating some information and adding a bit of extra. This is incidental, momentarily stuff deeply tied to the workings of the syntax.

*Here's my reasoning for khal rhaeshoon Andahli: Dothraki makes a difference between alienable and inalienable possessions (see http://www.dothraki.com/2012/11/possession/, where I kinda try to ask about this but don't get any answer for this specific case). Alienable is marked with genitive, inalienable with ablative. King is an integral part of an institution of a country (in medieval society). He is easily a metaphorical organ or a limb, it might even be straight out said that he is the realm. Kingness is indistinquishable from the land that gives the entitlement. In many ways the link to country is as integrally identifying as that of a hand of a person. Granted, this is a flimsy train of though; Dothraki have a narrow interpretation of the concept of inalienable, and eg. names are not inalienable, and if anyone is gonna ignore the intricasies of the concept of king, it's the Dothraki, whose "kings" are not tied to land and rise and fall with little fuzz. But there's also another way to look at this. The most basic meaning of ablative is "from". When we're speaking of places, this relation might very easily crop up on terms relating to origin or hereditary. It should never be too unlikely to guess that some term like "king of" or "football team of" is stuck with ablative. And it can't be too big an error, even if you'd guess wrong, because the "king from Land of Andals" is quite passable anyway.
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KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2014, 07:40:34 pm »
I didn't want to edit the wiki because apparently I don't know what I'm talking about half the time. I think I might be explaining it better and end up explaining it wrong. I did register for the wiki in case I do see something.

I've often gone right to the Verb Conjugations, Noun Cases, et cetera pages.

Mayhaps I took the concept of zero-copula sentences to dropping connecting words in general.

Okay, so use ablative instead of genitive for possession of inherent characteristics. The debate is about whether 'king' is an inherent characteristic of 'land of Andals', right?

For example: qesosi (my basket) versus rhaesoon (my foot/leg)

Qvaak

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2014, 05:14:23 am »
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I didn't want to edit the wiki because apparently I don't know what I'm talking about half the time. I think I might be explaining it better and end up explaining it wrong. I did register for the wiki in case I do see something.
Whelp, there should be stuff that's obviously just poor language. And anyway, any edit can be reverted. Changes should not go unnoticed and I'm not shy on challenging changes I think are incorrect.

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Mayhaps I took the concept of zero-copula sentences to dropping connecting words in general.
Ya, no. Zero-copula sentence is rather specific thing. And it's not really about skipping words as there aren't exactly any words that could be used. Usually Dothraki is IMO wordy rather than concise. There are a couple of surprising situations where words are dropped, like when vos is occasionally skipped as verb conjugation makes negative grade "explicit enough".

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Okay, so use ablative instead of genitive for possession of inherent characteristics. The debate is about whether 'king' is an inherent characteristic of 'land of Andals', right?
Debate in my head, yeah. Kinda. How Dothraki think about the concept, and if origin might push for ablative nevertheless.
That's how things go, when you don't know for sure. What is your intuition about the Dothraki language; what is your intuition about the Dothraki people; what alternative do you fancy, when reasoning does not take you anywhere.

For example: qesosi (my basket) versus rhaesoon (my foot/leg)
Genitive of qeso would be qesi. Genitive marks possessor, not possessee.
Qeso anni - my basket; rhae anhoon - my leg.
Achrakh qesoon anni - smell of my basket (smell is inalienable)

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Yer chomae mae - You honor her
seems like a straightforward conversion of Yer chomae anha (you honor me) as a substitute for 'thank you', better than 'allayafa' (she is pleased)
It's chomoe, because it's conjugation of a word chomolat, which is not listed in vocab, because we're sloppy. Incidentally it is listed on my old case study test on the concept of chom: http://wiki.dothraki.org/Chom. I'll add the word. Most Dothraki verbs come as three closely related siblings, basic, causative and /-o-/ form. When we have the basic form, the other may easily go under radar. If you wanted to use chomat, the similar sentence would go Yer choma maan.
Allayafat is causative of layafat. It basically means "causes to be happy".

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Chiori lajak ondee esina shor tawakof – The woman warrior wears a different steel dress
(Interesting pun. I’d like to add a word for kind/sort/type though.)
There's a lot to be said about this "woman warrior" concept, and most of it goes along the lines "heck if I know, but I guess I might have a hunch". I'd actually vote for lajakeesi. It's as iffy as anything, but sounds nice, and if we have no sure options, why not.
Shor is an animate noun, so as it is the object of the sentence, it's shores. Looking at the dialogue, tawakof seems to be functioning as an adjective and should agree with the accusative (shores), and thus be tawakofa. Esina is another adjective, so it should follow shores tawakofa (but does not agree with anything because it ends in vowel).
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KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2014, 08:42:53 am »
I admit I made a mistake with the zero-copula thing. Since Dothraki didn't have connecting words in that situation, I didn't think about them in other situations either.

Okay, I got the alienable/inalienable distinction right (I find it easier to think of that as non-inherent/inherent), even though I should have declined a pronoun instead of the noun.

The chom thing was just a typo.

I wanted to use lajakeesi, but I wasn't sure if I could actually make extended use of the -eesi ending. Yeah, may as well. I think I get what you did with the rest of the sentence.

KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2014, 11:20:54 pm »
Hadaen Ma Zhif - Food And Salt
I can't find any word for bread or something related (grain, types of grain, flour, et cetera) so I felt the need to go more general.

Horseflesh might be a good idiomatic/culturally specific translation as a fundamental food item instead of bread, is there any specific word for that compared to hrazefi gavat (horse's meat)?

KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 08:40:26 pm »
Khali Rhaeshi Andalhi mahrazhkem atakaki anni – His Grace is my second husband

As you can see, I've decided to use the King Of Land Of Andals construct for the Westerosi royal style/title.

'anni' for 'my' seems to go at the end of sample phrases I've seen, so I've replicated that here. Adding -ak to atak (2) to make atakak (2nd), with a further -i ending and put after the noun it's modifying seems obvious, but did I put 'marazhkem atakaki' at the right part in the sentence?

I could say 'Drogo was my first husband' in a similar manner (Drogo mahrazhkemoon ataki anni?), but how would you say a shortened version that would be understandable in the context of the first phrase?

Khaleesi ezzoe ifakes – The queen is teaching the foreigners

Vo hrazef laz indee mae, zalok verat mae – A horse can’t drink it, I don’t want to travel it (homage to “if a horse won’t eat it, I don’t want to play on it”, baseball star Dick Allen’s negative opinion of artificial turf.)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 09:50:07 pm by KingAlanI »

Qvaak

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 09:56:39 pm »
You're getting the hang of it :)

Ma (<- optional) Khali Rhaeshi Andahli mahrazhkem akataki anni, ma Drogo atakoon. Should be the short and corrected version.

Ifakis <- plural acusative

We don't seem to know any horsemeaty vocab. That's a pity. I bet there's plenty of that to be learned. No idea, if David has created it yet.
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KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 12:35:54 am »
yay, my main issues seem to be simple typos.
 :)
yeah, horsemeat seems like one of those things that Dothraki should have a word for.

also, did you see that phrase I added by edit a few minutes before your post?

Qvaak

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 02:28:07 am »
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also, did you see that phrase I added by edit a few minutes before your post?
Nope. I'll get to it right away.

As I've said, Dothraki is mostly more wordy (and syllably) than English. Well, that's not exaclty true, since English uses a lot of articles and prepositions. But anyway, Dothraki use plenty of connecting words. If English has if... syntax, try to bring something to the Dothraki version too.

Vo hrazef laz indee mae means "No horse can drink it," to be exact. Hrazef laz vos indeo mae would be "Horse can't drink it."

You can't drop the anha. You could, if the first sentence had it. Compare to how in English you might say "He travels a lot and so suffers from jetlag." but "He travels a lot and that's why am in love with him." is generally regarded broken English. It's not even the question about if or if not the verb marks the person, it's just that if subject is skipped, it's automatically assumed to be the same as before.

Vos actually can probably be skipped, even on both sentences. As I said earlier, that's one of the few surprising places where Dothraki actually do occasionally drop a word just because it's sort of superfluous. And of course that's a place where most damage is caused to a non-native listener/reader (and we of course all are non-native). those bastards I won't go to the details, let's just say that it's generally better to just use vos/vo.

Verat mea as a straightforward ...small clause? should work perfectly here, though with zalat /me-/ is mostly used. I think plain accusative is also rarely used with travel words. It's mostly along, to, from, with etc... in Dothraki as well as in English. But accusative is probably spot-on here.

Vo hrazef laz indee mae; anha zalok verat mae. Minimal corrections
Hash hrazef laz vos indeo mae, hash anha vo zalok verat mae. More to my liking
Kash hrazef laz indeo vos mae, kash anha zalok vosecchi verat mae More lively and emphatic
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

KingAlanI

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2014, 10:09:13 am »
Yeah, dropping the anha is one of my usual mistakes

Since horses in general can't drink it, that is the phrasing I was going for.

Is 'mea' a typo for mae?

Yeah, hash and kash are good connecting words to know.

I don't mean to directly mirror the phrasing of the quote I got the idea from.

fasqoyi

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Re: Some phrases I've made
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 05:52:23 am »
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Ma used prepositionally assigns ablative...
Me davrae ma koholoon ma loqamoon sekke. - "He is very good with bow and arrow(s)."

Can you explain why you assigned ablative?