Author Topic: The Lords Prayer thread  (Read 5343 times)

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Hrakkar

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2012, 01:38:22 pm »
I'm guessing khalasar is derived from khal and does not refer to just any band of people, but specifically to a group of people governed by a single khal. I'd guess comparing to kingdom hits quite close. Less kingdom as defined by the strip of land, more a kingdom defined by the loyal subjects, but kingdom nevertheless. Dothraki often tend to ridicule and detest the other ways of life than their own, so I think any idea of reign tied to land would sound less impressive than reign strictly tied to the people.

"Reign" or "leadership" would work, sure. When in doubt, strip the metaphore and go for the idea behind. But I think khalasar hits closer to the original wording and inherits most of it's connotations, so as long as it isn't proven unfit, I'm rooting for it.

Qvaak, I think I like your thinking on this!
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Najahho

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2012, 08:35:29 am »
Thanks a lot to all for the corrections, suggestions and all the work :)
Athhajar vidrie anna ayyey

Najahho

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 07:56:33 pm »
So... the best we have, (thanks to all the suggestions, ideas, corrections, comments, etc from Hrakkar, Qvaak and Ingsve!) is:

Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva
Our father who is in heaven
Vichomerates hake shafki.
May thy name be honored.
Jadates khalasar shafki.
May thy kingdom come.
Tates ki athzalari shafki, ven she sorfosor ven she asavva.
May thy *will be done, in earth as in heaven.

Now we have a few lines left. May I suggest:

Azhi kishaan hadaen kishi asshekh (can't find "daily" or "everyday" or anything there)
Give us our food today
-- (here we have no "forgive" or "forget" or "take away" or "debt")
Vos idro kisha Melaan (no word for "temptation")
Don't drive us into Evil
ma *asserisi kisha (formal imperative) Meloon (from seris 'free' > *serisat (taking into account naqis/naqisat) and then causative *asserisat)
and *free us from Evil

* Words with asterisk mean that we had to derive them from other words and are guesses.

Well, this has been tough and it can't be done with the limited corpus we know to date. But it's been fun to try, suggestions? Ideas?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 07:59:02 pm by Niqqo »
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Qvaak

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2012, 06:27:05 pm »
Whoop. Back to this project.

Quote
Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva
Our father who is in heaven
Vichomerates hake shafki.
May thy name be honored.
Jadates khalasar shafki.
May thy kingdom come.
Tates ki athzalari shafki, ven she sorfosor ven she asavva.
May thy *will be done, in earth as in heaven.
Ya. That's about where we are so far. The only thing I'd change is vekha to vekhi. And I'm not happy with tates ki athzalari shafki, even though that was my own take. Athzalar IMO is a solid choise, but otherwise the sentence loses a good deal of the original meaning. It's just hard to come up with more promising wording.

Quote
Azhi kishaan hadaen kishi asshekh (can't find "daily" or "everyday" or anything there)
I kinda gave up on this line thinking we'd come back to it when we have a word for 'bread', but now that I look at it, it seems completely bizarre to use 'bread', when surely bread isn't the rudimentary everyday item, even if Dothraki are familiar with the concept. Hadaen should be a much better word. The lack of any reasonable word for 'daily' hurts a bit. Because of it the possessive seems much more out of place than it should be. Of course if we'd go speculative enough, we might use something like asshekhay (participle through imaginary verb) or eyasshekh (compound with ei), but that goes far beyond reasonable uncertainity.

Funny enough, I'm again against the use of formal imperative (azhi, vos idro, asserisi), but for a different and less well-founded reason than before. I pretty sure my intuition is a bit off, when it comes to the difference between what we call 'formal' and what we call 'informal' imperative, but my take is that the 'formal' imperative is simply a command, blunt and true, while 'informal' imperative has more urging, more optative tone. Dunno. Finnish has an optative mood (though severely obsolete) but still uses imperative here. How sharply demanding should these lines be - and how superiority-induced is the formal imperative really..?


...
Asserisat seems a solid derivation to me. Highly probable.
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HoeriVezhof

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2016, 02:26:33 am »
After reading through this thread and seeing what you guys had so far, I decided to take a crack at translating this as well, based largely on the work you guys have done, but also looking at the original Greek text and the Latin version for comparison. Below is my translation and my justification for certain word choices. Please correct any grammar or vocabulary mistakes and suggest any alternative translations. Below my translation is my justifications for some of the translation choices I made.

1 Zhey ave kishi fin dothrae she asavva,
Oh father of ours who rides in the sky
2 vichomerates hake shafki,
may your name be respectable
3 jadates khalasar shafki,
may your horde come
4 vekholates/melisolates athzalar shafki,
may your hope(will) come to be/happen
5 ven she asavva akkate she sorfosor.
as in heaven also on earth
6 Azhas kishaan hadaenasshekhan asshekh;
give us today our bread intended for today;
7 m'azhas kishoa nemo echomosalat haji athfatizaroon,
and let us dishonor ourselves for our insolence
8 akkate kisha azhaki moroa rekaki fatie kisha nemo echomosalat;
as we let those who insult us dishonor themselves
9 ma vos idros kisha mr'athzirannithisezaraan,
and guide us not into temptation
10 vosma vijazeros kisha h'athmelaroon.
but rescue us from evil
11 hajinaan memra qora ma khalasar, m'athhajar, ma chomokh,
for you have in hand the kingdom, and the strength, and the honor,
12 ajjin m'ayyey
now and always
13 amen/sekosshi (me nem nesa).
amen/certainly (it is known)

1. I thought dothralat compliments the translation of khalasar for kingdom, as the Dothraki would likely see God as the Khalof, so it makes sense that he would be riding up in the heavens with his khalasar, perhaps atop Vezhof, who has been "tamed" by the new god and made his stead as a way of integrating the religion and transitioning from the old god to the new.

3. Jadat best matches both the original Greek and Latin versions of the prayers, which use ἔρχομαι and veniō. Both mean to come in a physical sense rather than to become or to come into being, which would be γίγνομαι and fīo. On top of that, jadat compliments lines 1 and 3, paints a great mental image of God descending from heaven with his khalasar behind him, and, as Najahho said, creates a better cultural connection.

4. either Vekholat or melisolat work well here, I think,  since both Greek and Latin use γίγνομαι and fīo here (let thy will/desire come into being, happen, take place).

5. As previously stated, there are different ways to translate this comparison. Greek and Latin use ὡς...καί and sicut…et both translated as so, as, just as, as…and, even, also. I personally like ven…akkate (like…the same way).

6-10. I According to David Peterson in Living Language Dothraki, "the informal imperative is used for requests while the formal imperative is used for commands." Which we use I think depends on how the Dothraki speak to their khal. Would you ever use the formal imperative -- that is, demand something of/from your khal -- or would you always use the informal imperative -- that is, request something from him? My thinking is it would be the latter, and that's why I went with the informal imperative.

6. Without getting into what the heck ἐπιούσον was supposed to mean in the original Greek (seriously, look it up, no one knows for sure since it only occurs this one time in the entire corpus of Koine Greek!), I chose to translate daily bread as hadaenasshekhan using the noun-noun allative compound, thus "food intended for the day" (I originally had havonasshekhan, but Qvaak convinced me that hadaen would be more culturally appropriate than havon).

*7-8. These lines were by far the hardest to translate. Firstly, I don't know if my grammar is correct here. Second, I used nemo echomosalat for to forgive (lit. I dishonor myself) based on the example sentence under its entry in the vocabulary page (which doesn't appear to be properly conjugated there and doesn't list it as a possible definition in the main entry which makes me a bit weary of using it this way). Lastly, I choose to use the word fatilat and form from it athfatizar (insolence) based off one Spanish version of the prayer that says:

   
"perdona nuestras ofensas, como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden."
"Forgive our offenses, as we also forgive those who offend us."

So to offend = fatilat and offense, insolence = athfatizar (as opposed to fatikh, which would be insult based on elzat-elzikh).

*9. Translating temptation was also a challenge. I decided to take ittelat and add the pejorative to form ziritteselat = to tempt, and then nominalized it, so athzirittesezar = temptation. I can see this word being formed many different ways, and admittedly I based my derivation off of Greek and Latin, which both derive their words for temptation from πειράζω and temptō meaning to try, test, tempt.

10. vijazerolat I think works well since the word in Greek here is ῥύομαι, which does mean to set free but also to protect, guard; rescue, save. Latin uses līberō, which has the meaning to free, release; so asserilat seems like a reasonable alternative to me. I also nominalized mel to form athmelar = evil, wickedness.

Bonus:
11. Okay, I lied, THIS was the hardest line to translate. I don't know if Dothraki has a construction similar to english yours is…, so I went with mra qora. Khalasar = kingdom was easy, but power and glory were not. Greek δύναμις has the meaning of power as in might, strength, but also authority, dominion, legal power; latin potestās doesn't translate to power as in strength, might, but to authority, dominions, political power. It makes sense to me that the Dothraki would conflate physical strength with political power, though, so I chose to translate it as athhajar. Greek δόξα can mean glory, honor, but also opinion, judgement, belief; while Latin glōria can mean glory, honor, fame. I chose chomokh because it matched up with both the Greek and Latin, but glory is one of those fuzzy words whose meaning I just can't quite grasp, especially not in a religious contexts; so again, I can see many other possible translations for these words.

*12. I considered two possible translations for this line: kashineak, a noun-adjective compound of kashin and neak (so mra kashineakaan, "into the long time," i.e. eternity), or the phrase evoon nakhaan ("from the beginning to the end"). I personally prefer the latter. Again, though, I can see many ways of translating this.

13. The original amen (Hebrew "truly, certainly") can be kept here, or we could translate it into Dothraki as sekosshi, or even sekosshi me nem nesa!

*edit:
-fixed lines 7 & 8 which were, as I suspected, grammatically incorrect.
-replaced athzirittesezar of line 9 with athzirannithisezar based off of a pejorative nominalization of annithilat, meaning to entice.
- changed line 12 to ajjin m'ayyey because it simpler, sounds better, and still gets the same idea across.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 03:40:00 am by HoeriVezhof »
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Khal_Qana

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2016, 12:24:03 pm »
Truly incredible work, Hoerivezhof! Terrific idea taking latin and greek roots to create new Dothraki loan words in order to properly translate the prayer. I think that your work so far is brilliant and that I would like to contact you in the near future. I would enjoy the practice, especially since it's been a while from last I touched up my grammar.  :)
Personally, if I am to borrow words instead of just mashing pre-existing dothraki words together, I take loan words from Swahili to complete my translations. P's become F's, B's become V's, U's become either O's or Oo's, and Dh's become Kh's. Simple. The phonology and structure more or less match up, and the cultures in which Swahili is descended from more or less match with that of the Dothraki. However since this is a script with European origin, it makes sense to use the languages that founded European civilization.
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Hrakkar

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2016, 07:24:34 pm »
I agree with Choyosor, very creative! I'm going to pass this on to David, who will also likely be impressed!
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HoeriVezhof

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2016, 01:29:32 am »

Terrific idea taking latin and greek roots to create new Dothraki loan words in order to properly translate the prayer.

Thank you for the compliments! Just to clarify, though, I didn't use Greek and Latin roots, but used the Greek and Latin versions of the Lord's Prayer as the bases of my translation (especially the Greek, since that is language that the prayer was first written in). I tried as hard as possible to use Dothraki words and derive them naturally when needed.

Personally, if I am to borrow words instead of just mashing pre-existing dothraki words together, I take loan words from Swahili to complete my translations. P's become F's, B's become V's, U's become either O's or Oo's, and Dh's become Kh's. Simple. The phonology and structure more or less match up, and the cultures in which Swahili is descended from more or less match with that of the Dothraki. However since this is a script with European origin, it makes sense to use the languages that founded European civilization.
That's really cool! I must admit I don't know much about Swahili, though I hope the duolingo course will be finished soon, as I'd love to start learning a non-Indo-European and from what I've read off the wikipedia page so far, it seems like a really cool language. I think if I were to borrow words into Dothraki they would be first from Valyrian (of course), and second from arabic seeing as it was David Peterson's phonological inspiration. Also now that I think about it, the  indo-europeans were nomadic tribesmen who primarily rode on horseback, so it might be interesting to note how they derived their words for more agrarian-based concepts, tools, and institutions and compare the two.

I would like to contact you in the near future. I would enjoy the practice, especially since it's been a while from last I touched up my grammar.  :)
That sounds great! I'll warn I'm just learning, though; it's much easier to translate something with a dictionary and reference at hand to fix any mistakes than to come up with sentences on the spot for me, but for that reason I'd be great to practice with someone else! Just message me to exchange contact info.
I agree with Choyosor, very creative! I'm going to pass this on to David, who will also likely be impressed!
Wow, thank you! Credit should also go to everyone who posted here before, as I built off much of my translation off what you guys had already worked out. I'd also like to add one little thing with is that I only just noticed the verb annithilat with one of its meanings being to entice and so think athannithizar or maybe even athvirannithisezar would be a better and more Dothraki-based word for temptation than Greek-inspired athvirittesezar. It's been bothering me since I found the word in the vocabulary and just wanted to mention it.
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Khal_Qana

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Re: The Lords Prayer thread
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2016, 05:12:17 am »
Responses to every point addressed to me:

1) My apologies for the misunderstanding then. I was at my
university and my brain tried to sum up what you said with my quick read through it. Unsuccessfully as it would appear.  Still, it was a brilliant use of the languages.

2) I just started learning Swahili and I have to say that I'm intranced and a little bit in love with it. Surprisingly complex while still keeping a deeply human/rhythmic feel to it. If you're looking for a second natlang, I'd highly recommend it.

3) Well whenever you're ready or feel comfortable having a discussion I'd be happy to talk. I'll PM you after I finish this comment.
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