Learn Valyrian > Beginners
Questions: Aorist, Class II stems, diminutives
leoboiko:
Hi! I'm just taking my first look at High Valyrian and I have some noob questions:
1. When should the aorist tense be used, as opposed to perfect? Is it the thing where aorist is punctual, and perfect implies continuing state? Or something else?
2. Quoting the wiki:
--- Quote ---The vast majority of Class II stems end in j, l, n, ñ, or r. There seem to be some rare exceptions to this rule, but thus far none are known. Stems may end in multiple consonants, e.g. mirre "any," morghe "dead."
--- End quote ---
2a. In morgh-, cited in the same paragraph, the "two consonants" are /r/ and /ɣ/, right? So when we say that "no exceptions are known" to the /j, l, n, ñ, r/ rule, do we mean just one of the consonants of the cluster?
2b. Litse "beautiful" in the vocabulary is listed as a Class II stem. Is that correct? If so, isn't it one of the exceptions?
3. I'm in doubt about where the stem ends to form diminutives. Please tell me that zaldrīzes + ītsos becomes cute Spanish-like zaldrīzītsos :D
4.
From the wiki vocabulary:
zokla, 1☽ → zoklītsos, 2☉
riña, 1☽ → riñītsos, 3☉
Is the class of zoklītsos a mistake, given that "second declension nouns have the stem vowel -y"? Since third declension has -o, it looks better for -ītsos nouns…
Assuming 3. above is correct, would Dænerys' three little dragons in nom. paucal be zaldrizītsun?
leoboiko:
Also, I just noticed tāemitsos which is stated to be a diminutive, and it's 3☉ as I'd expect. But why short -itsos and not -ītsos…?
Mad Latinist:
--- Quote from: leoboiko on April 01, 2014, 10:09:53 am ---Hi! I'm just taking my first look at High Valyrian and I have some noob questions:
--- End quote ---
Rytsas, Leoboikos (*Liobaeko·s, maybe?). Sorry it's taken me so long to reply: I rarely read the forums, and only noticed your questions because Qvaak drew my attention to this thread.
--- Quote ---1. When should the aorist tense be used, as opposed to perfect? Is it the thing where aorist is punctual, and perfect implies continuing state? Or something else?
--- End quote ---
The name "aorist" is confusing if you only know it through Greek grammar (which, admittedly, most people who know the word do). Outside of Greek it tends to be used quite diferently: it refers to something which is a general truth. So, if we're talking about Greek, it's specifically like the gnomic aorist, or more commonly the present tense. This distinction is actually quite easy to get in English: as a (simplistic) rule of thumb, the Valyrian present tense is our "present continuous," and the Valyrian aorist is our "simple present." So:
--- Quote ---
* Dakon "I am running" (e.g. "... from a horde of wights; I suggest you do the same!")
* Dakossin "I run" (e.g. "... every morning, to stay in shape.")
--- End quote ---
This is also the verb form in the infamous Valar Morghūlis/Dohaeris, conventionally glossed "All men must die/serve." Because the aorist implies something is always true, it can sometimes be translated with "must," especially when used with a collective noun. Let's play with that a bit:
--- Quote ---
* Valar morghūlis (col, aor) "All men (must) die."
* Valar morghūljas (col, pres) "All men are dying."
* Vala morghūlis (sing, aor) "A man dies."
* Vala morghūljas (sing, pres) "A man is dying."
--- End quote ---
I thought I explain at least the material in my first paragraph over at [[High Valyrian Verb Conjugation]]. I should look it over again to see how it can be made more clear. Any suggestions? It's difficult, since I am essentially the only writer on the Valyrian languages over at the wiki, so it can be difficult for me to tell if I'm being clear or not.
--- Quote ---2. Quoting the wiki:
--- Quote ---The vast majority of Class II stems end in j, l, n, ñ, or r. There seem to be some rare exceptions to this rule, but thus far none are known. Stems may end in multiple consonants, e.g. mirre "any," morghe "dead."
--- End quote ---
2a. In morgh-, cited in the same paragraph, the "two consonants" are /r/ and /ɣ/, right? So when we say that "no exceptions are known" to the /j, l, n, ñ, r/ rule, do we mean just one of the consonants of the cluster?
2b. Litse "beautiful" in the vocabulary is listed as a Class II stem. Is that correct? If so, isn't it one of the exceptions?
--- End quote ---
Hmm, I think I intended that list to refer specifically to stems that end in one consonant, and for consonant clusters to be treated separately. But difficult to be sure at this point.
--- Quote ---3. I'm in doubt about where the stem ends to form diminutives. Please tell me that zaldrīzes + ītsos becomes cute Spanish-like zaldrīzītsos :D
--- End quote ---
That is correct, so far as I know. Take off everything from the "stem vowel" on, then add -ītsos.
--- Quote ---4.
From the wiki vocabulary:
zokla, 1☽ → zoklītsos, 2☉
riña, 1☽ → riñītsos, 3☉
--- End quote ---
I love that you're using the ☽/☉-symbol system! That was originally my idea, and even DJP thought it was cool, but I decided it was safer to use abbreviations on the wiki.
--- Quote ---Is the class of zoklītsos a mistake, given that "second declension nouns have the stem vowel -y"?
Since third declension has -o, it looks better for -ītsos nouns…
--- End quote ---
Absolutely! Again, since I'm virtually the only one working on this, I don't get a lot of proofreading. So if you see what appears to be a mistake, then it probably is one! In particular, I think I make a lot of mistakes regarding noun declension class number. There is no possible way for zoklītsos to be second declension, sorry about that.
--- Quote ---Assuming 3. above is correct, would Dænerys' three little dragons in nom. paucal be zaldrizītsun?
--- End quote ---
Formally that is correct. But I warn you that we know very little about how the paucal is used. I don't think we've seen any examples that weren't "relexes." When I did my Valun Jomorghūlis joke, David said that was iffy because I "was using 'some' to mean 'certain'" (he felt the joke would only work with the contrast to valar morghūlis right there). That's about all we know about how the paucal behaves "in the wild." Feel free to ask DJP if zaldrizītsun will work for "Dænerys' three little dragons," and let us know what he says!
--- Quote from: leoboiko on April 03, 2014, 09:35:28 am ---Also, I just noticed tāemitsos which is stated to be a diminutive, and it's 3☉ as I'd expect. But why short -itsos and not -ītsos…?
--- End quote ---
Yeah, another mistake on my part: that i is definitely long!
leoboiko:
Hey Mad Latinist, thank you so much for the work on the wiki (and the detailed comments on DJP's blog, et cetera). I really appreciate it; you efforts translated into hours of entertainment for me :)
--- Quote ---I thought I explain at least the material in my first paragraph over at [[High Valyrian Verb Conjugation]]. I should look it over again to see how it can be made more clear. Any suggestions? It's difficult, since I am essentially the only writer on the Valyrian languages over at the wiki, so it can be difficult for me to tell if I'm being clear or not.
--- End quote ---
I read it again and yes, the opening table plus the Present Active first paragraph are clear enough; I blame myself for skimming the page too lightly. I think I must have jumped directly to the "Aorist" sub-heading, and (as you've guessed) the tense name interfered with my previous knowledge of the word in a Greek context. (In my defense, I think I've skimmed the Wikipedia entry too, and it says that “in these [IE] languages the aorist is usually a form that expresses perfective aspect and often refers to past events. It is thus comparable in meaning to what is called the preterite in grammars of some languages.”—and in my native language we do use "preterite" for past tense).
Perhaps what would have saved lazy me would be a brief re-statement of the semantics on the Aorist sub-heading, and an explicit note that it's not like the Greek/IE "past tense aorist" but the "gnomic aorist". On second thought, I should add those myself…
--- Quote ---I decided it was safer to use abbreviations on the wiki.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I used the astronomical symbols in my Anki flashcards only to find they don't show up in the mobile (Android) version—even though I had previously installed the Junicode font for runes and such. It's a shame that, in this age of cheap processing, we still can't even rely on having a full Unicode set in all devices.
--- Quote ---Feel free to ask DJP
--- End quote ---
Will do. Thanks for the detailed answer!
leoboiko:
Ok, he said that yes, it would be zaldrīzītsun for "a few little dragons" (nom.). David also said that
--- Quote ---while you could say hāri zaldrīzin [number + paucal], it would be more natural to say either hāri zaldrīzesse [number + plural] or zaldrīzin [paucal] by itself.
--- End quote ---
So I guess "a few little dragons" are ok, but "three little dragons" would be better as hāri *zaldrīzītssa… (I wonder if I can say Dænero zaldrīzītsun issi litsi ? Guess I just want to use the paucal… )
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