Learn Dothraki and Valyrian

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvaak on March 23, 2012, 04:03:55 am

Title: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Qvaak on March 23, 2012, 04:03:55 am
Hahh. My brother and I just discussed the traditional test texts for different languages - and especially conlangs. It seems Lord's Prayer is rather popular. I think that might be almost doable.

Of course, the questions are almost doable too - probably somewhat easier than the Lord's Prayer.

I'm bone deeply unreligious, so it does not make much difference, which religion the translation candidates belong to. Even some unreligious texts would be quite alright, though I wonder if there are any as prominent.
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: ingsve on March 23, 2012, 05:23:41 am
Hahh. My brother and I just discussed the traditional test texts for different languages - and especially conlangs. It seems Lord's Prayer is rather popular. I think that might be almost doable.

Of course, the questions are almost doable too - probably somewhat easier than the Lord's Prayer.

I'm bone deeply unreligious, so it does not make much difference, which religion the translation candidates belong to. Even some unreligious texts would be quite alright, though I wonder if there are any as prominent.

It depends on what you mean by prominent but I would think that the closest in terms of secular texts would probably be some type of well-known song lyrics or perhaps also movie quotes but that's stretching it a bit thin.

If you mean secular textx that are prominent in that they have also been translated into many languages then I can't really think of any that could rival various religious texts.
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: Najahho on March 25, 2012, 12:54:37 pm
The Lord's prayer could be very interesting in Dothraki!

Let's give it a try then:
Zhey ave kishi fin she asavva... "Our father who is in heaven"

maybe: hake shafki nem chomo "thy name be honored" ?

khalasar shafki jadi "thy horde come" ?

dirge shafki ti* she sorfosor ven she asavva "Thy thought be done in earth as in heaven" ?
* somebody knows the full conjugation for tat? (I'm going for formal imperative here)
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: Qvaak on March 26, 2012, 06:15:29 pm
Quote
Zhey ave kishi fin she asavva... "Our father who is in heaven"
I too would have started with "Zhey ave kishi". The latter part.. even though Dothraki does not use copula ("to be" in sense of "to equal", "to have an attribute" etc.), you can't, AFAIK, go without a verb when speaking of location. So to say "x is in place y", you must use vekhat, "to be", "to exist". So:
Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva
Vekhat is an exceptional word in that is assigns the subject to genitive; so fini is indeed a singular animate noun, even though the looks are a bit misleading.

Quote
maybe: hake shafki nem chomo "thy name be honored" ?
Where does the /-o-/ come from? Even with the nem particle, the verb conjugates normally, agreeing with the subject n' stuff, so as best as I can translate, your line means "Your name grew respected", chomo being the past singular of chomolat, conservatively hypothetical word for something like to grow respectful, to begin to respect.
I think there is an experssion in dothraki for a third person ...optative? imperative?... degree/engouragement thingie. It's probably that infinite into accusative thingie. I'll probably manage to ask on the IRC tonight. My guess now would be:
Vichomerates hake shafki.

...more later
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: Najahho on March 26, 2012, 09:06:37 pm
Well wouldn't Chomo be the formal imperative? Giving us "be honored!". I think that's quite close.

From here I'm a little bit lost. Do we have a word for "daily"?
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: Hrakkar on March 27, 2012, 01:54:00 pm
Well wouldn't Chomo be the formal imperative? Giving us "be honored!". I think that's quite close.

From here I'm a little bit lost. Do we have a word for "daily"?

Its reasonable, as the use in the prayer is kind of past-tensish, anyway.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: Najahho on March 27, 2012, 02:38:41 pm
Well wouldn't Chomo be the formal imperative? Giving us "be honored!". I think that's quite close.

From here I'm a little bit lost. Do we have a word for "daily"?

Its reasonable, as the use in the prayer is kind of past-tensish, anyway.

Keep up the good work!

But it's actually a formal imperative.
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: Qvaak on March 28, 2012, 03:59:11 pm
Quote
Well wouldn't Chomo be the formal imperative? Giving us "be honored!". I think that's quite close.
Well, kinda, but not really. I had to check the formal imperative myself, to be clear on this, but this is how it goes: for consonant ending stems /-i/, nothing to vowel ending. In negative grade the /-i/ or otherwise the final vowel of the stem changes to o. So for chomolat 'chomo' would be a correct formal imperative, but I don't think that was what you were going for. For chomat 'vos chomo' would be a correct negative formal imperative. That wasn't what you were going for either.

What we can learn from here, though, is that the verb suffixes in Dothraki aren't very good at making the verb conjugation clear. There are a lot of same suffixes used for different things, and syntax and noun cases play a huge role in further clarifying the way of verbing. Imperative sentences don't carry subjects. That's how we recognize them (well, informal imperative carries an unique suffix, but the formal one really needs to have the correct syntax). There's probably no grammatically correct way to use the regular imperative (formal or informal) with any other person than the second. The use of passivizing particle nem is intriguing, but probably no particles (except vos) can be used either, and I'm not sure, how it would parse, exaclty.

I asked mr. Peterson about impersonal commands, and it seems I happened to be right: "Vichomerates hake shafki." really is a syntactically sound way to express the sentence. There were only a vaque hints pointing to this before, but I'll try to update the Wiki now that we know.
Title: Re: Re: Passover:The four Questions
Post by: Najahho on March 28, 2012, 10:13:48 pm
Quote
Well wouldn't Chomo be the formal imperative? Giving us "be honored!". I think that's quite close.
Well, kinda, but not really. I had to check the formal imperative myself, to be clear on this, but this is how it goes: for consonant ending stems /-i/, nothing to vowel ending. In negative grade the /-i/ or otherwise the final vowel of the stem changes to o. So for chomolat 'chomo' would be a correct formal imperative, but I don't think that was what you were going for.

Actually yes, yes I was going exactly for that.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Qvaak on March 29, 2012, 02:02:08 am
Quote
Actually yes, yes I was going exactly for that.
Alright. Sorry for not getting it. Why chomolat and not just chomat?
Edit: Ahh! "Me vafik, zhey khaleesi. Dothraki chomoe mae." from the series. How that hasn't made its way to the vocab. Still, I'm not convinced the meaning fits.

...Thinking further about Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva, I wonder if Zhey ave kishi fini vekhi she asavva would work - or be even better. A relative pronoun in a second person sentence seems a bit odd, but it works unproblematically in English (and in Finnish), so why not in Dothraki too.

Quote
khalasar shafki jadi
We have a word rhaesh, which is pretty good approximation of kingdom, IMO, but I think I like khalasar better. It's a good culturalization. I'm less sure about jadat. It's a literal translation, but sounds too concrete to me. Especially since khalasars can travel and thus don't need to metaphorically "come". Of course you might think of it literally even in English: the kingdom descending from the heaven, ie. moving here. I've always thought of it more as "to come into being", "to begin to exist". I might go with yolat.
And I'd use that newfound impersonal command thingie even here. So I'd propose
Yolates khalasar shafki.

Quote
dirge shafki ti* she sorfosor ven she asavva "Thy thought be done in earth as in heaven" ?
* somebody knows the full conjugation for tat? (I'm going for formal imperative here)
Tat should conjugate regularily save for the past singular, where there's that curious irregular epenthetic e at the beginning. Ti should indeed be the formal imperative. The end of the sentence sounds promising to me, though ven needs to be in front of both arguments. I'd change dirge to athzalar. It's just "hope" in the vocabulary, but as a nominalization of zalat, I think the meaning should be spot on. But all in all I'm not at all sure, how that "thy will be done" might work in dothraki. I'll hazard an uninspired guess:
Tates ki athzalari shafki, ven she sorfosor ven she asavva.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: ingsve on March 29, 2012, 04:12:50 am
Quote
khalasar shafki jadi
We have a word rhaesh, which is pretty good approximation of kingdom, IMO, but I think I like khalasar better. It's a good culturalization. I'm less sure about jadat. It's a literal translation, but sounds too concrete to me. Especially since khalasars can travel and thus don't need to metaphorically "come". Of course you might think of it literally even in English: the kingdom descending from the heaven, ie. moving here. I've always thought of it more as "to come into being", "to begin to exist". I might go with yolat.
And I'd use that newfound impersonal command thingie even here. So I'd propose
Yolates khalasar shafki.

How about vekholat? Wouldn't that mean "to begin to exist"?
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Najahho on March 29, 2012, 07:05:25 am
Quote
Actually yes, yes I was going exactly for that.
Alright. Sorry for not getting it. Why chomolat and not just chomat?
Edit: Ahh! "Me vafik, zhey khaleesi. Dothraki chomoe mae." from the series. How that hasn't made its way to the vocab. Still, I'm not convinced the meaning fits.

Why not? A formal imperative to replace a subjunctive. I think it works just fine. The "let's" construction seems too colloquial to me.

...Thinking further about Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva, I wonder if Zhey ave kishi fini vekhi she asavva would work - or be even better. A relative pronoun in a second person sentence seems a bit odd, but it works unproblematically in English (and in Finnish), so why not in Dothraki too.

This only if you actually need that verb there, which I'm not convinced about.

Quote
khalasar shafki jadi
We have a word rhaesh, which is pretty good approximation of kingdom, IMO, but I think I like khalasar better. It's a good culturalization. I'm less sure about jadat. It's a literal translation, but sounds too concrete to me. Especially since khalasars can travel and thus don't need to metaphorically "come". Of course you might think of it literally even in English: the kingdom descending from the heaven, ie. moving here. I've always thought of it more as "to come into being", "to begin to exist". I might go with yolat.
And I'd use that newfound impersonal command thingie even here. So I'd propose
Yolates khalasar shafki.

Not sure about this. Isn't "rhaesh" more like "land, country"? It would in any case fail to give the feeling of the realm and its structure, so I prefer to err on the side of the culture. Maybe a compromise with "khalrhaesh", "rhaesh khali"?
Why use "yolat"? "be born"? Isn't that too much interpretation? All translations use "come", why not go by that? The fact that a khalasar can actually "come" might be just a happy event that would help this culture assimilate the prayer.

Quote
dirge shafki ti* she sorfosor ven she asavva "Thy thought be done in earth as in heaven" ?
* somebody knows the full conjugation for tat? (I'm going for formal imperative here)
Tat should conjugate regularily save for the past singular, where there's that curious irregular epenthetic e at the beginning. Ti should indeed be the formal imperative. The end of the sentence sounds promising to me, though ven needs to be in front of both arguments. I'd change dirge to athzalar. It's just "hope" in the vocabulary, but as a nominalization of zalat, I think the meaning should be spot on. But all in all I'm not at all sure, how that "thy will be done" might work in dothraki. I'll hazard an uninspired guess:
Tates ki athzalari shafki, ven she sorfosor ven she asavva.

The parsing is almost always "sicut in caelo et in terra" even in Ancient Slavic, maybe "ven she sorfosor ma she asavva"?
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: ingsve on March 29, 2012, 11:31:15 am

...Thinking further about Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva, I wonder if Zhey ave kishi fini vekhi she asavva would work - or be even better. A relative pronoun in a second person sentence seems a bit odd, but it works unproblematically in English (and in Finnish), so why not in Dothraki too.

This only if you actually need that verb there, which I'm not convinced about.

The verb is definately needed. You can only use the non-verb construction for copula if you have a situation where "(pro)noun is noun". The preposition is not enough to change the meaning into (pro)noun is in noun, it only makes in ungrammatical.

Quote
khalasar shafki jadi
We have a word rhaesh, which is pretty good approximation of kingdom, IMO, but I think I like khalasar better. It's a good culturalization. I'm less sure about jadat. It's a literal translation, but sounds too concrete to me. Especially since khalasars can travel and thus don't need to metaphorically "come". Of course you might think of it literally even in English: the kingdom descending from the heaven, ie. moving here. I've always thought of it more as "to come into being", "to begin to exist". I might go with yolat.
And I'd use that newfound impersonal command thingie even here. So I'd propose
Yolates khalasar shafki.

Not sure about this. Isn't "rhaesh" more like "land, country"? It would in any case fail to give the feeling of the realm and its structure, so I prefer to err on the side of the culture. Maybe a compromise with "khalrhaesh", "rhaesh khali"?
Why use "yolat"? "be born"? Isn't that too much interpretation? All translations use "come", why not go by that? The fact that a khalasar can actually "come" might be just a happy event that would help this culture assimilate the prayer.

I think rhaesh is fine. That's the word you would use in any other situation to translate the word kingdom and I don't see why this should be an exception. If you want to make it more bombastic then perhaps something like rhaeshof could also work.

Quote
dirge shafki ti* she sorfosor ven she asavva "Thy thought be done in earth as in heaven" ?
* somebody knows the full conjugation for tat? (I'm going for formal imperative here)
Tat should conjugate regularily save for the past singular, where there's that curious irregular epenthetic e at the beginning. Ti should indeed be the formal imperative. The end of the sentence sounds promising to me, though ven needs to be in front of both arguments. I'd change dirge to athzalar. It's just "hope" in the vocabulary, but as a nominalization of zalat, I think the meaning should be spot on. But all in all I'm not at all sure, how that "thy will be done" might work in dothraki. I'll hazard an uninspired guess:
Tates ki athzalari shafki, ven she sorfosor ven she asavva.

The parsing is almost always "sicut in caelo et in terra" even in Ancient Slavic, maybe "ven she sorfosor ma she asavva"?

There are lots of translations that use a different parsing. The traditional swedish version is "Let your will be done so as in heaven so also on earth".
There is nothing wrong with ven she sorfosor ven she asavva, that's simply how you parse it in Dothraki.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Hrakkar on March 29, 2012, 01:31:58 pm
for the khalasar vs rhaesh debate, here are some more thoughts (coming from an overtly Christian perspective, but the discussion here is very good). Khalasar refers to a moveable band of (presumably living) people. Besides move, the band can increase or decrease in number. It is dynamic, but it is physical. Rhaesh refers to the land, physical land that a khalasar might or might not be occupying.

Kingdom as used in this prayer, and as used by Jesus throughout the gospels really doesn't refer to a literal country or people, but more to a concept. It is referring to a state of being where God is in control. Thus a closer match would be a word for 'reign' or perhaps 'leadership'. Unfortunately, I drew a blank when trying to find a Dothraki term that expresses this idea.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Qvaak on March 29, 2012, 11:42:59 pm
Quote
How about vekholat? Wouldn't that mean "to begin to exist"?
Quote
Why use "yolat"? "be born"? Isn't that too much interpretation? All translations use "come", why not go by that? The fact that a khalasar can actually "come" might be just a happy event that would help this culture assimilate the prayer.
Jadat might well be the winner. If the word is not totally out of place, it's of course best to stick close to original. The way it's used in ye olde X.NOM Y.ALB expression gives me some trust that it at least might carry the right kind of metaphoric connotations. I just like musing over things. Vekholat, that ingsve proposes, might be a good alternative, much better than my yolat for sure.

Quote
Why not? A formal imperative to replace a subjunctive. I think it works just fine. The "let's" construction seems too colloquial to me.
Umm. We still have problems hitting the same wave length. Chomat and chomolat are different words, both of which can be conjugated to formal imperative: chomi and chomo. I was wondering, why you used the one that wasn't on our vocabulary page. Both words mean more or less to respect. The former is stative, communicating a static state of affairs, eg. that I respect you. The latter is ...we have used a word 'dynamic'... it should communicate a change in the situation, an active deed. For example the Lhazreen women weren't generally respected, or considered respectable, so (as horrible as it is) it makes sense that the dynamic word was used. The name here, on the other hand, should have a permanent status of being respected, so I think the word must be chomat, if not vichomerat.

The "let's" expression may seem colloquial just because I wrote what little we knew about it in the wiki, and I'm no word smith. I've tried to update the explanation a bit now that we know more.
The problem with formal imperative is that it's rather unlikely the way it's used is grammatical. I think I have specifically asked about using imperatives in third person and got a 'no'. I can't swear I have, but there certainly has been conversation around the subject.
And the further problem is that while grammatically broken language sometimes works in poetic context, with these sentences there is an easy grammatical or near-grammatical way to interpret them, so there's little chance that the strange imperative syntax would be communicated to the audience.

Quote
This only if you actually need that verb there, which I'm not convinced about.
Well, it's not impossible that it might work, but I'm quite convinced otherwise and so seem to be ingsve. Zhey ave kishi she asavva would sound fine to me, but when you throw in the relative pronoun, that just screams for some proper predicate. We have a few examples of vekhat being used to indicate location, even in such simple sentences as "Vo mawizzi vekho jinne," but I find no examples of a location adverb used for a solitary argument.

Quote
There is nothing wrong with ven she sorfosor ven she asavva, that's simply how you parse it in Dothraki.
Aye. Dothraki uses words like ven, che or ma (also words like kash) usually in front of all the arguments. It's more a syntax thing than a semantical thing. In translation you can often just drop one of the words away: "ven she sorfosor ven she asavva" -> "on earth like in heaven"; "Kash anha adakh, kash heffof samvo." -> "While I ate, the jug got broken."

Quote
for the khalasar vs rhaesh debate, here are some more thoughts (coming from an overtly Christian perspective, but the discussion here is very good).
Thanks! I try to be respecful. The whole exercise is a bit pointless otherwise.

Quote
Khalasar refers to a moveable band of (presumably living) people. Besides move, the band can increase or decrease in number. It is dynamic, but it is physical. Rhaesh refers to the land, physical land that a khalasar might or might not be occupying.

Kingdom as used in this prayer, and as used by Jesus throughout the gospels really doesn't refer to a literal country or people, but more to a concept. It is referring to a state of being where God is in control. Thus a closer match would be a word for 'reign' or perhaps 'leadership'. Unfortunately, I drew a blank when trying to find a Dothraki term that expresses this idea.

I'm guessing khalasar is derived from khal and does not refer to just any band of people, but specifically to a group of people governed by a single khal. I'd guess comparing to kingdom hits quite close. Less kingdom as defined by the strip of land, more a kingdom defined by the loyal subjects, but kingdom nevertheless. Dothraki often tend to ridicule and detest the other ways of life than their own, so I think any idea of reign tied to land would sound less impressive than reign strictly tied to the people.
"Reign" or "leadership" would work, sure. When in doubt, strip the metaphore and go for the idea behind. But I think khalasar hits closer to the original wording and inherits most of it's connotations, so as long as it isn't proven unfit, I'm rooting for it.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Hrakkar on March 31, 2012, 01:38:22 pm
I'm guessing khalasar is derived from khal and does not refer to just any band of people, but specifically to a group of people governed by a single khal. I'd guess comparing to kingdom hits quite close. Less kingdom as defined by the strip of land, more a kingdom defined by the loyal subjects, but kingdom nevertheless. Dothraki often tend to ridicule and detest the other ways of life than their own, so I think any idea of reign tied to land would sound less impressive than reign strictly tied to the people.

"Reign" or "leadership" would work, sure. When in doubt, strip the metaphore and go for the idea behind. But I think khalasar hits closer to the original wording and inherits most of it's connotations, so as long as it isn't proven unfit, I'm rooting for it.

Qvaak, I think I like your thinking on this!
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Najahho on April 17, 2012, 08:35:29 am
Thanks a lot to all for the corrections, suggestions and all the work :)
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Najahho on May 01, 2012, 07:56:33 pm
So... the best we have, (thanks to all the suggestions, ideas, corrections, comments, etc from Hrakkar, Qvaak and Ingsve!) is:

Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva
Our father who is in heaven
Vichomerates hake shafki.
May thy name be honored.
Jadates khalasar shafki.
May thy kingdom come.
Tates ki athzalari shafki, ven she sorfosor ven she asavva.
May thy *will be done, in earth as in heaven.

Now we have a few lines left. May I suggest:

Azhi kishaan hadaen kishi asshekh (can't find "daily" or "everyday" or anything there)
Give us our food today
-- (here we have no "forgive" or "forget" or "take away" or "debt")
Vos idro kisha Melaan (no word for "temptation")
Don't drive us into Evil
ma *asserisi kisha (formal imperative) Meloon (from seris 'free' > *serisat (taking into account naqis/naqisat) and then causative *asserisat)
and *free us from Evil

* Words with asterisk mean that we had to derive them from other words and are guesses.

Well, this has been tough and it can't be done with the limited corpus we know to date. But it's been fun to try, suggestions? Ideas?
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Qvaak on May 02, 2012, 06:27:05 pm
Whoop. Back to this project.

Quote
Zhey ave kishi fini vekha she asavva
Our father who is in heaven
Vichomerates hake shafki.
May thy name be honored.
Jadates khalasar shafki.
May thy kingdom come.
Tates ki athzalari shafki, ven she sorfosor ven she asavva.
May thy *will be done, in earth as in heaven.
Ya. That's about where we are so far. The only thing I'd change is vekha to vekhi. And I'm not happy with tates ki athzalari shafki, even though that was my own take. Athzalar IMO is a solid choise, but otherwise the sentence loses a good deal of the original meaning. It's just hard to come up with more promising wording.

Quote
Azhi kishaan hadaen kishi asshekh (can't find "daily" or "everyday" or anything there)
I kinda gave up on this line thinking we'd come back to it when we have a word for 'bread', but now that I look at it, it seems completely bizarre to use 'bread', when surely bread isn't the rudimentary everyday item, even if Dothraki are familiar with the concept. Hadaen should be a much better word. The lack of any reasonable word for 'daily' hurts a bit. Because of it the possessive seems much more out of place than it should be. Of course if we'd go speculative enough, we might use something like asshekhay (participle through imaginary verb) or eyasshekh (compound with ei), but that goes far beyond reasonable uncertainity.

Funny enough, I'm again against the use of formal imperative (azhi, vos idro, asserisi), but for a different and less well-founded reason than before. I pretty sure my intuition is a bit off, when it comes to the difference between what we call 'formal' and what we call 'informal' imperative, but my take is that the 'formal' imperative is simply a command, blunt and true, while 'informal' imperative has more urging, more optative tone. Dunno. Finnish has an optative mood (though severely obsolete) but still uses imperative here. How sharply demanding should these lines be - and how superiority-induced is the formal imperative really..?


...
Asserisat seems a solid derivation to me. Highly probable.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: HoeriVezhof on August 30, 2016, 02:26:33 am
After reading through this thread and seeing what you guys had so far, I decided to take a crack at translating this as well, based largely on the work you guys have done, but also looking at the original Greek text and the Latin version for comparison. Below is my translation and my justification for certain word choices. Please correct any grammar or vocabulary mistakes and suggest any alternative translations. Below my translation is my justifications for some of the translation choices I made.

1 Zhey ave kishi fin dothrae she asavva,
Oh father of ours who rides in the sky
2 vichomerates hake shafki,
may your name be respectable
3 jadates khalasar shafki,
may your horde come
4 vekholates/melisolates athzalar shafki,
may your hope(will) come to be/happen
5 ven she asavva akkate she sorfosor.
as in heaven also on earth
6 Azhas kishaan hadaenasshekhan asshekh;
give us today our bread intended for today;
7 m'azhas kishoa nemo echomosalat haji athfatizaroon,
and let us dishonor ourselves for our insolence
8 akkate kisha azhaki moroa rekaki fatie kisha nemo echomosalat;
as we let those who insult us dishonor themselves
9 ma vos idros kisha mr'athzirannithisezaraan,
and guide us not into temptation
10 vosma vijazeros kisha h'athmelaroon.
but rescue us from evil
11 hajinaan memra qora ma khalasar, m'athhajar, ma chomokh,
for you have in hand the kingdom, and the strength, and the honor,
12 ajjin m'ayyey
now and always
13 amen/sekosshi (me nem nesa).
amen/certainly (it is known)

1. I thought dothralat compliments the translation of khalasar for kingdom, as the Dothraki would likely see God as the Khalof, so it makes sense that he would be riding up in the heavens with his khalasar, perhaps atop Vezhof, who has been "tamed" by the new god and made his stead as a way of integrating the religion and transitioning from the old god to the new.

3. Jadat best matches both the original Greek and Latin versions of the prayers, which use ἔρχομαι and veniō. Both mean to come in a physical sense rather than to become or to come into being, which would be γίγνομαι and fīo. On top of that, jadat compliments lines 1 and 3, paints a great mental image of God descending from heaven with his khalasar behind him, and, as Najahho said, creates a better cultural connection.

4. either Vekholat or melisolat work well here, I think,  since both Greek and Latin use γίγνομαι and fīo here (let thy will/desire come into being, happen, take place).

5. As previously stated, there are different ways to translate this comparison. Greek and Latin use ὡς...καί and sicut…et both translated as so, as, just as, as…and, even, also. I personally like ven…akkate (like…the same way).

6-10. I According to David Peterson in Living Language Dothraki, "the informal imperative is used for requests while the formal imperative is used for commands." Which we use I think depends on how the Dothraki speak to their khal. Would you ever use the formal imperative -- that is, demand something of/from your khal -- or would you always use the informal imperative -- that is, request something from him? My thinking is it would be the latter, and that's why I went with the informal imperative.

6. Without getting into what the heck ἐπιούσον was supposed to mean in the original Greek (seriously, look it up, no one knows for sure since it only occurs this one time in the entire corpus of Koine Greek!), I chose to translate daily bread as hadaenasshekhan using the noun-noun allative compound, thus "food intended for the day" (I originally had havonasshekhan, but Qvaak convinced me that hadaen would be more culturally appropriate than havon).

*7-8. These lines were by far the hardest to translate. Firstly, I don't know if my grammar is correct here. Second, I used nemo echomosalat for to forgive (lit. I dishonor myself) based on the example sentence under its entry in the vocabulary page (which doesn't appear to be properly conjugated there and doesn't list it as a possible definition in the main entry which makes me a bit weary of using it this way). Lastly, I choose to use the word fatilat and form from it athfatizar (insolence) based off one Spanish version of the prayer that says:

   
"perdona nuestras ofensas, como también nosotros perdonamos a los que nos ofenden."
"Forgive our offenses, as we also forgive those who offend us."

So to offend = fatilat and offense, insolence = athfatizar (as opposed to fatikh, which would be insult based on elzat-elzikh).

*9. Translating temptation was also a challenge. I decided to take ittelat and add the pejorative to form ziritteselat = to tempt, and then nominalized it, so athzirittesezar = temptation. I can see this word being formed many different ways, and admittedly I based my derivation off of Greek and Latin, which both derive their words for temptation from πειράζω and temptō meaning to try, test, tempt.

10. vijazerolat I think works well since the word in Greek here is ῥύομαι, which does mean to set free but also to protect, guard; rescue, save. Latin uses līberō, which has the meaning to free, release; so asserilat seems like a reasonable alternative to me. I also nominalized mel to form athmelar = evil, wickedness.

Bonus:
11. Okay, I lied, THIS was the hardest line to translate. I don't know if Dothraki has a construction similar to english yours is…, so I went with mra qora. Khalasar = kingdom was easy, but power and glory were not. Greek δύναμις has the meaning of power as in might, strength, but also authority, dominion, legal power; latin potestās doesn't translate to power as in strength, might, but to authority, dominions, political power. It makes sense to me that the Dothraki would conflate physical strength with political power, though, so I chose to translate it as athhajar. Greek δόξα can mean glory, honor, but also opinion, judgement, belief; while Latin glōria can mean glory, honor, fame. I chose chomokh because it matched up with both the Greek and Latin, but glory is one of those fuzzy words whose meaning I just can't quite grasp, especially not in a religious contexts; so again, I can see many other possible translations for these words.

*12. I considered two possible translations for this line: kashineak, a noun-adjective compound of kashin and neak (so mra kashineakaan, "into the long time," i.e. eternity), or the phrase evoon nakhaan ("from the beginning to the end"). I personally prefer the latter. Again, though, I can see many ways of translating this.

13. The original amen (Hebrew "truly, certainly") can be kept here, or we could translate it into Dothraki as sekosshi, or even sekosshi me nem nesa!

*edit:
-fixed lines 7 & 8 which were, as I suspected, grammatically incorrect.
-replaced athzirittesezar of line 9 with athzirannithisezar based off of a pejorative nominalization of annithilat, meaning to entice.
- changed line 12 to ajjin m'ayyey because it simpler, sounds better, and still gets the same idea across.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Khal_Qana on August 30, 2016, 12:24:03 pm
Truly incredible work, Hoerivezhof! Terrific idea taking latin and greek roots to create new Dothraki loan words in order to properly translate the prayer. I think that your work so far is brilliant and that I would like to contact you in the near future. I would enjoy the practice, especially since it's been a while from last I touched up my grammar.  :)
Personally, if I am to borrow words instead of just mashing pre-existing dothraki words together, I take loan words from Swahili to complete my translations. P's become F's, B's become V's, U's become either O's or Oo's, and Dh's become Kh's. Simple. The phonology and structure more or less match up, and the cultures in which Swahili is descended from more or less match with that of the Dothraki. However since this is a script with European origin, it makes sense to use the languages that founded European civilization.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Hrakkar on August 31, 2016, 07:24:34 pm
I agree with Choyosor, very creative! I'm going to pass this on to David, who will also likely be impressed!
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: HoeriVezhof on September 02, 2016, 01:29:32 am

Terrific idea taking latin and greek roots to create new Dothraki loan words in order to properly translate the prayer.

Thank you for the compliments! Just to clarify, though, I didn't use Greek and Latin roots, but used the Greek and Latin versions of the Lord's Prayer as the bases of my translation (especially the Greek, since that is language that the prayer was first written in). I tried as hard as possible to use Dothraki words and derive them naturally when needed.

Personally, if I am to borrow words instead of just mashing pre-existing dothraki words together, I take loan words from Swahili to complete my translations. P's become F's, B's become V's, U's become either O's or Oo's, and Dh's become Kh's. Simple. The phonology and structure more or less match up, and the cultures in which Swahili is descended from more or less match with that of the Dothraki. However since this is a script with European origin, it makes sense to use the languages that founded European civilization.
That's really cool! I must admit I don't know much about Swahili, though I hope the duolingo course will be finished soon, as I'd love to start learning a non-Indo-European and from what I've read off the wikipedia page so far, it seems like a really cool language. I think if I were to borrow words into Dothraki they would be first from Valyrian (of course), and second from arabic seeing as it was David Peterson's phonological inspiration. Also now that I think about it, the  indo-europeans were nomadic tribesmen who primarily rode on horseback, so it might be interesting to note how they derived their words for more agrarian-based concepts, tools, and institutions and compare the two.

I would like to contact you in the near future. I would enjoy the practice, especially since it's been a while from last I touched up my grammar.  :)
That sounds great! I'll warn I'm just learning, though; it's much easier to translate something with a dictionary and reference at hand to fix any mistakes than to come up with sentences on the spot for me, but for that reason I'd be great to practice with someone else! Just message me to exchange contact info.
I agree with Choyosor, very creative! I'm going to pass this on to David, who will also likely be impressed!
Wow, thank you! Credit should also go to everyone who posted here before, as I built off much of my translation off what you guys had already worked out. I'd also like to add one little thing with is that I only just noticed the verb annithilat with one of its meanings being to entice and so think athannithizar or maybe even athvirannithisezar would be a better and more Dothraki-based word for temptation than Greek-inspired athvirittesezar. It's been bothering me since I found the word in the vocabulary and just wanted to mention it.
Title: Re: The Lords Prayer thread
Post by: Khal_Qana on September 02, 2016, 05:12:17 am
Responses to every point addressed to me:

1) My apologies for the misunderstanding then. I was at my
university and my brain tried to sum up what you said with my quick read through it. Unsuccessfully as it would appear.  Still, it was a brilliant use of the languages.

2) I just started learning Swahili and I have to say that I'm intranced and a little bit in love with it. Surprisingly complex while still keeping a deeply human/rhythmic feel to it. If you're looking for a second natlang, I'd highly recommend it.

3) Well whenever you're ready or feel comfortable having a discussion I'd be happy to talk. I'll PM you after I finish this comment.