Author Topic: Sentence Attempts  (Read 22237 times)

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ingsve

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2011, 12:37:41 pm »
Regarding canonical case role vs non canonical: I take that to mean the cases as typically defined vs the role they have with verb cases. So something should be expressed using accusative, genitive, ablative or allative if possible before you try to find a verb case formation instead.

Regarding verbs that can't be used without an object: I'm not sure exactly what you mean but we do have a slight distinction between transitive and intransitive verbs. For example samvolat is used when something simply breaks (Arakh samvo). But when someone is doing the breaking you instead use assamvat which is the transitive version of the same verb and I would guess that assamvat can't be used without an object.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 12:41:01 pm by ingsve »
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

ValekLost

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2011, 11:30:00 am »
First attempt to translate something starting from zero.
I try also, with this couple of sentences to clarify some doubt I've.

Version 1 - simple negation

This is the blood of my blood and for this (reason) it's Dothraki blood.
The Lands of Andals won't drinkt it.


Jin qoy qoyi, majin Dothraki qoyi.
Rhaeshi (plur) Andahli oindeo/ondeo (see below) mae.


Version 2 - Emphatic negation

This is the blood of my blood and for this (reason) it's Dothraki blood.
The Lands of Andals will never drink it.


Jin qoy qoyi, majin Dothraki qoyi.
Rhaeshi (plur) Andahli, oindeo/ondeo (see below) vosecchi mae.




Doubt:

to drink > indelat
present: inde- ...? the form for presente is -e ..so it become "indee"? "inde"? Or is there some epenthesis I missed?
future negative: I was wondering about "oindeo" but I found in a part of script "vos ondeo" (present negative of "ondelat" - to wear)...so..can I assume that the future negative of indelat and the present negative of ondelat could match in the written form and so it is "ondeo" and not "oindeo" for help the pronunciation?

Sorry in case I've done some basic mistakes or I've written some non-sense, but I slept only 2-3 hours and my mind it's not so present <,<
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 11:31:36 am by ValekLost »

ingsve

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2011, 12:26:48 pm »
First attempt to translate something starting from zero.
I try also, with this couple of sentences to clarify some doubt I've.

Version 1 - simple negation

This is the blood of my blood and for this (reason) it's Dothraki blood.
The Lands of Andals won't drinkt it.


Jin qoy qoyi, majin Dothraki qoyi.
Rhaeshi (plur) Andahli oindeo/ondeo (see below) mae.


First of all, "blood of my blood" is an epithet that refers to a person that has that specific title. You are using the phrase to refer specifically to blood which makes it a bit strange. The final part is also a bit mixed up. First of all in this situation your main word is blood. Dothraki is just used as an adjective here (or something like that) so it should come after the word blood. You are also missing the word "it". I think what you are trying to write is something like:

Jin qoy qoyi anni, majin me qoy Dothraki. Which would be something like "This is blood of my blood, consequently it is blood of the Dothraki."

Here I spelled out "blood of my blood" completely to set it apart from the epithet which is a shortened version of what I wrote.


Version 2 - Emphatic negation

This is the blood of my blood and for this (reason) it's Dothraki blood.
The Lands of Andals will never drink it.


Jin qoy qoyi, majin Dothraki qoyi.
Rhaeshi (plur) Andahli, oindeo/ondeo (see below) vosecchi mae.

Doubt:

to drink > indelat
present: inde- ...? the form for presente is -e ..so it become "indee"? "inde"? Or is there some epenthesis I missed?
future negative: I was wondering about "oindeo" but I found in a part of script "vos ondeo" (present negative of "ondelat" - to wear)...so..can I assume that the future negative of indelat and the present negative of ondelat could match in the written form and so it is "ondeo" and not "oindeo" for help the pronunciation?

Sorry in case I've done some basic mistakes or I've written some non-sense, but I slept only 2-3 hours and my mind it's not so present <,<

Yes, the present tense of indelat is indee. It is pronounced with two separate e-sounds after each other (in-de-e).

The future tense of verbs that begin with a vowel is to add a /v-/. So third person future would be vindee and the negative of that would be vindeo.

As for your sentences. They are almost correct apart from the conjugation of indelat.

So it should be (I think)

Rhaeshi Andahli vindeo vosecchi mae.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

ValekLost

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2011, 03:04:08 am »

So, firstly thank you for help and corrections :P

For "qoy qoyi" I've totally forgotten about the "title", and I took it as a general idiom.  :P
So, "qoy qoyi" is only for the title, while if it means "son/daughter" it needs also the genitive pronoun.

Ok.

Next..I've a doubt about the future tense, negative.
In the wiki, there is:
Quote
In the negative grade the future tense is changed from /a-/ to /o-/. So the sentence "I will not ride" would be Anha vos odothrok.


So that's is ONLY for verbs that starts with a consonant, like it's writen.
I don't know why, but I've extendend the rule also for those which starts with a vowel. ???

ingsve

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2011, 03:28:41 am »

So, firstly thank you for help and corrections :P

For "qoy qoyi" I've totally forgotten about the "title", and I took it as a general idiom.  :P
So, "qoy qoyi" is only for the title, while if it means "son/daughter" it needs also the genitive pronoun.

Ok.

I'm not sure if the Dothraki would even use a term like that to refer to a son or daughter. It's pretty much used for expressing the special relationship between a Khal and his bloodriders. Sort of like a blood oath.

Next..I've a doubt about the future tense, negative.
In the wiki, there is:
Quote
In the negative grade the future tense is changed from /a-/ to /o-/. So the sentence "I will not ride" would be Anha vos odothrok.


So that's is ONLY for verbs that starts with a consonant, like it's writen.
I don't know why, but I've extendend the rule also for those which starts with a vowel. ???

Well, this is because the verbs agree with negation rather that being marked by it. Agreement is a weaker form of connection than marking so this means that you won't always see on the verb that there is a negation. You have the same thing with the verb conjugations that end in an /-i/, that they are the same for positive and negative.

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Qvaak

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2011, 03:33:46 am »
Quote
I'm not sure if the Dothraki would even use a term like that to refer to a son or daughter. It's pretty much used for expressing the special relationship between a Khal and his bloodriders. Sort of like a blood oath.

Ya. I think 'blood brother' would be quite close approximation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_brother
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 03:35:35 am by Qvaak »
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

ValekLost

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2011, 08:30:35 pm »
Quote
I'm not sure if the Dothraki would even use a term like that to refer to a son or daughter.

I'm not sure too, though I was using it in a more literal way than the "blood of my blood" that we usually use in our world, like "I've my blood and then my son/daughter has my blood too" in the simplest way.
Btw, maybe it's more correct to use rizh and nothing more, but I don't know if there is a female corrispective.


Today (06/15) there is a total ecplise of moon, visibile from Europe and also Italy.
I was wondering if there is a way to say it in Dothraki  ;D
It would be nice to nerding around.

I try with:
shekhqoyi > total ecplise of sun > jalanqoyi > total ecplise of moon (?) they're a similar phenomena and sometimes the moon, during the eclipse phases has a bloodish-reddish colour <,<

So..

"Today there will be a total eclipse of moon"
could be
Asshekh avekha jalankqoyi?

I took "vekha" from
Quote
-Drogo: Nevakhi vekha ha maan. There is a place for you.

somthing like "it's present .." given that the dictionnary says: -vekhat - to be present.
But I'm not so sure neither about "vekha", nor about "avekha" as tense to use in this context. Better the present tense?

ingsve

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2011, 02:06:01 am »
Quote
I'm not sure if the Dothraki would even use a term like that to refer to a son or daughter.

I'm not sure too, though I was using it in a more literal way than the "blood of my blood" that we usually use in our world, like "I've my blood and then my son/daughter has my blood too" in the simplest way.
Btw, maybe it's more correct to use rizh and nothing more, but I don't know if there is a female corrispective.


Today (06/15) there is a total ecplise of moon, visibile from Europe and also Italy.
I was wondering if there is a way to say it in Dothraki  ;D
It would be nice to nerding around.

I try with:
shekhqoyi > total ecplise of sun > jalanqoyi > total ecplise of moon (?) they're a similar phenomena and sometimes the moon, during the eclipse phases has a bloodish-reddish colour <,<

So..

"Today there will be a total eclipse of moon"
could be
Asshekh avekha jalankqoyi?

I took "vekha" from
Quote
-Drogo: Nevakhi vekha ha maan. There is a place for you.

somthing like "it's present .." given that the dictionnary says: -vekhat - to be present.
But I'm not so sure neither about "vekha", nor about "avekha" as tense to use in this context. Better the present tense?

Well, that might be possible. We would have to confirm it with David Peterson though [Edit: David confirms that it is jalanqoyi.]. We already have jalan qoyi which means moon of blood which is their word for a harvest moon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_moon. But perhaps when you form it as a compound word it can have a different meaning.

As for your sentence then that sort of works I think. But perhaps it needs a word order change. Vekhat means "to be present" or can also work as "to exist". I think I would write it as:

Jalanqoyi avekha asshekh. "A total eclipse of the moon will exist today."
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 02:40:28 am by ingsve »
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

ValekLost

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2011, 04:05:24 am »
Yep!
It sounds also better.
Thank you as always :D
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 04:20:45 am by ValekLost »

Ruben

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2011, 05:11:09 am »
Ok, i'm a complete newbie to this, so please bear with me. I'm trying real hard to learn the grammar, but my brain is starting to hurt.

I want to write something for my girlfriend, and so far i've come up with this:

Anni khaleesi lain, anni erin chiori.

Which should be something like "My beautiful queen, my kind woman".

It's probably a very literal translation, but i did try to read up on the grammar, but was lost in translation right away.

Can you please help me? Before i lose my mind, lol.

Qvaak

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2011, 04:37:36 pm »
Quote
Can you please help me? Before i lose my mind, lol.

With pleasure. Trying to puzzle out other's attempts is nearly as good training as creating one's own attempts. Ingsve will probably tell you anyway, what I corrected wrong :)

Adjectives follow nouns and possessives follow them, so the word order would be somewhat different for both parts.

There are two words for beautiful, lain and zheana. The former is reserved for inanimate nouns (to highligh the difference, you might think of it as "aesthetic" rather than "beautiful", I think) and the latter for animate. Generally inanimate nouns are for stuff like a shovel or a cupboard. Humans are usually described by animate nouns, and khaleesi is indeed quite assuredly an animate noun.

A long sidenote:
However, I can't fault you, if you really did some research and thought otherwise. We have marked khaleesi just a noun (I'm adding the animate mark now). Animacy of many nouns has not been certain, and we know there are lots of exeptions to the general rule that living running things in general and humans in particular are denoted to with animate nouns. We learn more and more, but updates are often dragging slightly behind (this is not very big community and everything that is done must be done by someone).

We have some rules for determining animacy: http://forum.dothraki.org/index.php/topic,72.0/topicseen.html. I'm not entirely sure, how well they'll work in practice, but as they're from Peterson, they should be essentially correct.

Two of the rules actually suggest khaleesi might be an inanimate noun. 1) Diminutives are supposed to be inanimate and marked by /-i/. Unfortunately dothraki use /-i/ for myriad different things. It seems some nouns end with 'i' just to follow the trend. 2) Khaleesi has a background of compound noun. Peterson has said it is derived from khal+yesi. Compounds seem to be consistently inanimate, but this isn't really a dothraki-modern compound, just has an etymology of one, so this is not a strong clue.

Of course you can often determine animacy based on how the word declines and how other words around it function:
Lekhi ha khaleesisaan? <- HA! Animate noun, because inanimate allative would be khaleesaan.
Zhey chiori zheana! <- HA! Use of zheana means chiori is an animate noun.
...ast chiori fini zirisse oggoes dorvoon... uhh. I think "fini" should be for inanimate nouns and "fin" for animate. But hey, my understanding is still rather limited.


Back to the topic:

I think
Khaleesi zheana anni, chiori erin anni.
would be pretty much what you were looking for.

Nearly all words inflect in dothraki, so usually you would not get them right by just picking them from dictionary. These are all in dictionary form, so if you didn't check further, you were lucky or chose a cleverly easy text for a first try.

Nouns inflect, but mostly as plurals and objects. Here the dictionary form, nominative, is just right. Adjectives inflect, but to my knowledge just for plurals, so they are right too. Pronomines are actually inflected as they should be (anni instead of nominative anha), but you'll find some person pronouns redily inflected on the dictionary. Had you wanted to say eg. "Khal's beautiful khaleesi..." knowing, how to decline khal would have been paramount:
Khaleesi zheana khali, chiori erin khali.

Of course it kinda helped, that the text wasn't yet a full sentence. But then again, remove the comma and you have a full sentence:
Khaleesi zheana anni chiori erin anni. "My beautiful khaleesi is my kind woman."
This is of course the special dothraki zero copula sentence, X-NOM Y-NOM - "X is Y" (Lets call it just "NOM NOM"?). I think the existence of this structure might push the meaning of your sentence ever so slightly off. Because of the confusing similarity the dothraki might not recognize your structure of concurrent arguments. They might just ignore the comma and go with a fact statement. The distinction isn't big, but nevertheless it exists... dunno. For example should you address your girlfriend by
Zhey khaleesi zheana anni, chiori erin anni.
Or should you try something like
Zhey khaleesi zheana anni, zhey chiori erin anni.

...?
Game of Thrones is not The Song of Ice and Fire, sweetling. You'll learn that one day to your sorrow.

ingsve

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2011, 07:13:41 pm »
I have nothing to really add. Qvaaks fix is correct as far as I can see. As for the use of zhey at the end, that's unclear to me as well.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

ValekLost

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2011, 12:45:35 am »

Hi Ruben!
Don't worry. Here we are all learners, and neither we run to win the title of "the best", nor this forum it's a class and everyone who make a mistake, gain a bad mark and a lot of homework to do at home :P
Trying and compare ourselves with others, I think is the best way both to understand and learn :D



I was wondering about the use of "zhey", just a couple of days ago, while listening to the dialogues in the episodes.
And it's not cleart to me too.

In ep 9 for exemple, Qotho speaks often to Daenerys, but "zhey" is rarely said (or at least, I think it is so. Maybe I didn't understand well).
On the other hand, he says it to Mirri Maz Duur when they're inside the tent. "yer jin, zhey maegi" (You did this, witch.)

I thought it could be a sort of "insult" to Dany because of she's a stranger, or something linked to this, but "zhey" is simply related to the vocative, it's not a sort of courtesy form, also because I don't think he would have said "zhey" to the maegi and not to his queen :P

So, I still not understand how "zhey" works :(

Ruben

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2011, 04:46:31 am »
Qvaak, thanks so much. It made much sense to me, and the sentence looks really good. I'll read more on how to put the words in order. English is not my native language, so learning a third language through a second language is quite a challenge, but eventually i'm sure i'll get the hang of it.
But thank you very much anyway, it was really helpful :)

Heh, thanks for understanding ValekLost, i have asked newbie questions before in other forums, where one would just be shot down for being, well, a newbie, so it's a really warm feeling to be welcomed as much as i have already, and been taken seriously as well.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 04:49:15 am by Ruben »

ValekLost

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Re: Sentence Attempts
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2011, 05:21:29 am »
English is not my native language, so learning a third language through a second language is quite a challenge, but eventually i'm sure i'll get the hang of it.

I'm in the same situation, and not only me :D
It's quite a challenge but..nothing's impossibile!  8)

Quote
Heh, thanks for understanding ValekLost, i have asked newbie questions before in other forums, where one would just be shot down for being, well, a newbie, so it's a really warm feeling to be welcomed as much as i have already, and been taken seriously as well.

I believe this is the best way to discourage a community to grow.
Everyone has learned, no one is born with the knowledge. So..why shot down who's trying to learn like they have done before?  :o

I think I can say we're not that kind of community, so, feel free to try and to make mistakes ;P