301
Announcements / Re: Question from David Peterson concerning Forum
« on: September 18, 2011, 06:29:17 am »
Aye. Of course. Go ahead, Mr. Peterson.
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302
Announcements / Re: IRC chats among ourselves
« on: September 14, 2011, 08:14:45 am »Quote
Right now, it is daylight savings time, so 5 PM PDT is 4 PM PST. This would help Qvaak, and might really help Insgive.
Not really. The daylight saving system is widely implemented. The Europe and USA are the same amount apart throughout the year, barring a few states (Arizona, Hawaii) and countries (Russia, Iceland) not implementing the DST and a few weeks due to different changing times.
303
Announcements / Re: IRC chats among ourselves
« on: September 13, 2011, 07:28:39 pm »
Just so that it is said: Having special meetup times does not mean that the channel will not be there the other times and days. You might always meet people there.
Weekdays were preferred. I think mondays might work fine. Evening in general and 8pm PST in particular was mentioned. 8pm PST is 6am for me and 5am for ingsve and the most of the western Europe. Presently I sadly sometimes am still awake at that hour, but it is slightly uncomfortably late (or early) for Europe. I think from midnight to roundabout 3am sector is more reasonably doable. For PST people that would mean... well... rather early evening, 4pm or 5pm perhaps?
Weekdays were preferred. I think mondays might work fine. Evening in general and 8pm PST in particular was mentioned. 8pm PST is 6am for me and 5am for ingsve and the most of the western Europe. Presently I sadly sometimes am still awake at that hour, but it is slightly uncomfortably late (or early) for Europe. I think from midnight to roundabout 3am sector is more reasonably doable. For PST people that would mean... well... rather early evening, 4pm or 5pm perhaps?
304
Dothraki Language Updates / Re: The Dictionary Thread
« on: September 13, 2011, 06:40:16 pm »
Yeah. This is all good. Shared workload rules.
Have you found your way to http://wiki.dothraki.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary&limit=500&action=history? I can see how it's not entirely reader friendly, but in theory the compare selected revisions system is quite spot on. Just compare the current with any old version and you'll see all the changes that have been made since.
That being said, I think the word-by-word comparison is still in the end worth the trouble.
Quote
I tried to to look at the wiki vocabulary to see if I can figure out how figure out when it was updated, but I need to study it more, as it is not immediately reader-friendly. So, I need to do a word-by word comparison to make sure that the documents are initally sync'ed.
Have you found your way to http://wiki.dothraki.org/index.php?title=Vocabulary&limit=500&action=history? I can see how it's not entirely reader friendly, but in theory the compare selected revisions system is quite spot on. Just compare the current with any old version and you'll see all the changes that have been made since.
That being said, I think the word-by-word comparison is still in the end worth the trouble.
305
Beginners / Re: Pronunciation questions
« on: September 09, 2011, 07:05:54 pm »
The vowel change following [q] is a tough thing to get a good grasp of. It might be the best to just try to pronounce as written (not as the IPA instructs), but relaxed and natural, not pushing for the "correct" intonation. I'm not sure, but I think my vowels do shift at least some if I just let them.
Do Peterson's vowels shift after the [q] on the audio examples? I can't say.
It might be also worth noting, that the dothraki use only four phonemic vowels. Finns have eight. English have, I don't know, many. Seems to me that the dothraki might all in all pronounce vowels more loosely than most of us do.
Kh is actually another example of a phoneme with at least some range of different ...phones... allophones? I think David has said it sometimes shifts to palatal fricative. There aren't many phonemes nearby, so kh has space to wiggle. Listening to David (the latter relay) there seems to be two, maybe three different ways he says it. At the start of a word (kher) there is a bit of an attack; the phone is not terribly far from kh the actors sometimes seem to fall into. At the start of a syllabe (lavakhok and lekhaan) there is maybe less attack, but the phone is still harsh (even with lekhaan, where kh isn't on stressed syllabe). At the end of a word (elzikh) the phone tends to be a lot softer, closer to h.
What would that make in IPA codes? You can pronounce the same phoneme softer and sharper, I think, so maybe they all are just [ x ]. Maybe they should be [ x ], but aren't really. Even Peterson's pronunciation might shift in live situation more than the language allows. [ x ] isn't a phoneme he would use that often. Maybe they vary as they should, between [ ç ] and [ x ], and maybe even visiting [ ɣ ] or [ ɰ ] for more emphasis.
Do Peterson's vowels shift after the [q] on the audio examples? I can't say.
It might be also worth noting, that the dothraki use only four phonemic vowels. Finns have eight. English have, I don't know, many. Seems to me that the dothraki might all in all pronounce vowels more loosely than most of us do.
Kh is actually another example of a phoneme with at least some range of different ...phones... allophones? I think David has said it sometimes shifts to palatal fricative. There aren't many phonemes nearby, so kh has space to wiggle. Listening to David (the latter relay) there seems to be two, maybe three different ways he says it. At the start of a word (kher) there is a bit of an attack; the phone is not terribly far from kh the actors sometimes seem to fall into. At the start of a syllabe (lavakhok and lekhaan) there is maybe less attack, but the phone is still harsh (even with lekhaan, where kh isn't on stressed syllabe). At the end of a word (elzikh) the phone tends to be a lot softer, closer to h.
What would that make in IPA codes? You can pronounce the same phoneme softer and sharper, I think, so maybe they all are just [ x ]. Maybe they should be [ x ], but aren't really. Even Peterson's pronunciation might shift in live situation more than the language allows. [ x ] isn't a phoneme he would use that often. Maybe they vary as they should, between [ ç ] and [ x ], and maybe even visiting [ ɣ ] or [ ɰ ] for more emphasis.
306
Announcements / Re: IRC Chats with David Peterson
« on: September 09, 2011, 05:13:21 pm »
Alright. Now, should we have some less David-centered irc-meet times, then? Times, when it is a bit more likely than usual that there are people (even other people than ingsve) active and possibly talkative?
307
David's Dothraki blog / Re: Propose Topics
« on: September 05, 2011, 07:56:58 pm »
A motley selection of topics interesting me..
- vocabularish: obscenities & expletives
Where and when; why and why not. What is taboo and what isn't even considered dirty talk...
- language use: informal speech
What gives in when dothraki speak carelessly and unclearly?
- grammar: tenses
How closely does the use of past, present and future resemble english? How do the verbal auxiliary thingies like laz and ray exactly work with the tenses? Are zero copula sentence ablatives and allatives just parts of the tenses, or do they carry a different sense and/or scope?
- audience participation: critique and corrections
Fine. I seem to be the most eager sentence crafter around here, so this is a kind of me-topic. Anyway, learning from mistakes is a great way to learn. I warmly recommend.
- creation process: creating scopes for word meanings
It seems to me that meanings of words in separate languages rarely truly coincide. There is always etymological weight, core meaning, connotations, special uses.. stuff. How are the scopes of word meanings created in dothraki?
- vocabularish: obscenities & expletives
Where and when; why and why not. What is taboo and what isn't even considered dirty talk...
- language use: informal speech
What gives in when dothraki speak carelessly and unclearly?
- grammar: tenses
How closely does the use of past, present and future resemble english? How do the verbal auxiliary thingies like laz and ray exactly work with the tenses? Are zero copula sentence ablatives and allatives just parts of the tenses, or do they carry a different sense and/or scope?
- audience participation: critique and corrections
Fine. I seem to be the most eager sentence crafter around here, so this is a kind of me-topic. Anyway, learning from mistakes is a great way to learn. I warmly recommend.
- creation process: creating scopes for word meanings
It seems to me that meanings of words in separate languages rarely truly coincide. There is always etymological weight, core meaning, connotations, special uses.. stuff. How are the scopes of word meanings created in dothraki?
308
David's Dothraki blog / Smaller Questions
« on: September 05, 2011, 03:51:09 pm »
Not all the interesting things make good blog post topics. Still they might be worth asking and, consequently, worth bringing up in a blog posts. Nothing is too insignificant for Small Questions thread.
Keep lengthy discussions on the other threads, please; this is a clean & simple questions thread. Also, if you think your peers (eg. me or ingsve) will probably already know the answers, you might ask your questions first at the beginners section or visit the IRC channel, and if our limited knowledge does not satisfy, then ask here.
Keep lengthy discussions on the other threads, please; this is a clean & simple questions thread. Also, if you think your peers (eg. me or ingsve) will probably already know the answers, you might ask your questions first at the beginners section or visit the IRC channel, and if our limited knowledge does not satisfy, then ask here.
309
David's Dothraki blog / Propose Topics
« on: September 05, 2011, 03:36:35 pm »
Blog posts will require topics to discuss. David (J. Peterson) said he will welcome topic proposals from us people here. So let us let the wishes fly.
This thread is reserved for topic proposals. Keep any lengthier discussions on the other threads. Even though Mr. Peterson has usually kept his distance, it is very likely that he will be reading this (Hi, David).
This thread is reserved for topic proposals. Keep any lengthier discussions on the other threads. Even though Mr. Peterson has usually kept his distance, it is very likely that he will be reading this (Hi, David).
310
Dothraki Language Updates / Re: Things learnt from other sources.
« on: August 31, 2011, 06:33:21 am »
Zanish and zanisshe you mean, I'm sure..
These irregularities rise from epenthesis issues.
If were getting this right (I'm pretty confident we are), sondra is in accusative sondre, because r-ending consonant clusters cannot end words. It gets the /-e/ so it's class B like zanisshi. And ferri does not get the /-e/, but loses the gemination of r, so it is in class A instead. The way we categorize things right now, class A is for irregular nouns and class B for regular.
We're not using these class markings in our vocabulary, but instead we just offer the accusatives of the nouns as supporting cases. I added the accusative of zanisshi to the wiki, 'cause I trust ingsve knows what he's talking about
These irregularities rise from epenthesis issues.
If were getting this right (I'm pretty confident we are), sondra is in accusative sondre, because r-ending consonant clusters cannot end words. It gets the /-e/ so it's class B like zanisshi. And ferri does not get the /-e/, but loses the gemination of r, so it is in class A instead. The way we categorize things right now, class A is for irregular nouns and class B for regular.
We're not using these class markings in our vocabulary, but instead we just offer the accusatives of the nouns as supporting cases. I added the accusative of zanisshi to the wiki, 'cause I trust ingsve knows what he's talking about
311
Dothraki Language Updates / Re: Things learnt from other sources.
« on: August 29, 2011, 08:52:18 am »
Fun.
I added the words to the wiki.
Is it that word Dave has coined from his own name at the middle of athastokhdeveshizar?
I added the words to the wiki.
Is it that word Dave has coined from his own name at the middle of athastokhdeveshizar?
312
Announcements / Re: IRC Chats with David Peterson
« on: August 27, 2011, 06:18:14 am »
Drat. I was hoping we'd soon fly through the episode 8. And now there is no promise on progress on that department for two weeks.
313
Dothraki Language Updates / Re: Things not yet known.
« on: August 20, 2011, 07:04:10 am »
The more you know...
- How do the different many word expressions work? We have just learned that the animacy of a noun-type many word expression is determined by the first word, so we at least know what kind of demonstrative pronoun to use with them. It goes to figure that when the latter word of the noun-type expression is a possessive, that word does not further decline. I think we have some decent examples already. How about adjectives, though? How about nouns of equal status? If there is some special treatment, what expressions are expressions enough to qualify?
Alegra allayafi shekh ma shierakis anni. - Ducks please my sun and stars. ...?
Anha chomak shierakea qiyai1. - I respect comets. ...?
How about additional adjectives? Possessives would normally come after them.
haesh rakhi erin - a kind lamb man ...?
haesh erin rakhi - a kind spawn of a lamb, but not so much a lamb man ...?
And the same goes for two part verbs, of course.
Anha thirok vosecchi athiraride. - I do not dream. ...?
- I'm still wondering, where the prepositions meant for objects go in passive and reflexive sentences, and if the subject (object... what ever) can just assume a special case assigned to the object (patient... what ever) by a verb class. But now I'm also wondering, if verbal auxilaries stack. The functions they provide are after all very diverse.
Yeroon laz ray nemo kemoo vosecchi ma! - You can't have married yourself! ...?!?
- All in all there is much much to be learned about the use of the verbal auxilaries. Laz, for example, to my understanding gives a subject an attribute has.a.canny.relation.to.the.verbing. Now, if the verbing is in negative grade, this mechanically would mean that the subject would be very able not to verb. This seems a counter-intuitive interpretation, though.
Anha laz vos ezhirok. Would make much more sense as "I cannot dance." than "I can refrain from dancing."
- Vowels are interesting. There are only four2, and even though I'm quite certain that none really have any comprehensive role or overtone, all seem to have their own character: o is for change and negation; i is for unindividualizing and diminishing; a is generic and replacable; e is there just to support the structure, pay it no attention.
How much more is there to be learned about differences and roles of this lot? I think we haven't seen a double i, is it not allowed? Do a's and e's have any characteristic modifier functions the same way o and i have?
1 That qiya is quite an extra can of worms. As mentioned earlier, I don't understand adjective declensions all that well and to have a vowel ending adjective in plural and perhaps also agreeing to the allative...
2Plus some somewhat vowelly things and a hint of diphtongs and some non-phonetic shifts.
- How do the different many word expressions work? We have just learned that the animacy of a noun-type many word expression is determined by the first word, so we at least know what kind of demonstrative pronoun to use with them. It goes to figure that when the latter word of the noun-type expression is a possessive, that word does not further decline. I think we have some decent examples already. How about adjectives, though? How about nouns of equal status? If there is some special treatment, what expressions are expressions enough to qualify?
Alegra allayafi shekh ma shierakis anni. - Ducks please my sun and stars. ...?
Anha chomak shierakea qiyai1. - I respect comets. ...?
How about additional adjectives? Possessives would normally come after them.
haesh rakhi erin - a kind lamb man ...?
haesh erin rakhi - a kind spawn of a lamb, but not so much a lamb man ...?
And the same goes for two part verbs, of course.
Anha thirok vosecchi athiraride. - I do not dream. ...?
- I'm still wondering, where the prepositions meant for objects go in passive and reflexive sentences, and if the subject (object... what ever) can just assume a special case assigned to the object (patient... what ever) by a verb class. But now I'm also wondering, if verbal auxilaries stack. The functions they provide are after all very diverse.
Yeroon laz ray nemo kemoo vosecchi ma! - You can't have married yourself! ...?!?
- All in all there is much much to be learned about the use of the verbal auxilaries. Laz, for example, to my understanding gives a subject an attribute has.a.canny.relation.to.the.verbing. Now, if the verbing is in negative grade, this mechanically would mean that the subject would be very able not to verb. This seems a counter-intuitive interpretation, though.
Anha laz vos ezhirok. Would make much more sense as "I cannot dance." than "I can refrain from dancing."
- Vowels are interesting. There are only four2, and even though I'm quite certain that none really have any comprehensive role or overtone, all seem to have their own character: o is for change and negation; i is for unindividualizing and diminishing; a is generic and replacable; e is there just to support the structure, pay it no attention.
How much more is there to be learned about differences and roles of this lot? I think we haven't seen a double i, is it not allowed? Do a's and e's have any characteristic modifier functions the same way o and i have?
1 That qiya is quite an extra can of worms. As mentioned earlier, I don't understand adjective declensions all that well and to have a vowel ending adjective in plural and perhaps also agreeing to the allative...
2Plus some somewhat vowelly things and a hint of diphtongs and some non-phonetic shifts.
314
Beginners / Re: Sentence Attempts
« on: August 18, 2011, 03:30:39 am »
Ei ki: "Os!"
Ko ki: "Ai."
... Ko ez os ma me em ma me an.
Using ei all by itself is rather unlikely to be grammatical. Maybe it should be Ei at.. ...everyone! HAH!
Ko ki: "Ai."
... Ko ez os ma me em ma me an.
Using ei all by itself is rather unlikely to be grammatical. Maybe it should be Ei at.. ...everyone! HAH!
315
Dothraki Language Updates / Re: Things not yet known.
« on: August 17, 2011, 05:08:57 pm »
I thought it would be nice to recap, what has been puzzled here so far, and how much has been clarified.
Notable progress or solved:
- Non-nominative declensions of all pronouns?
I'm not entirely sure, what things count as pronouns (memra, maybe?), but this seems to be at least mostly solved.
- More about animacy of nouns?
I think we have pretty good grasp of animacy nowadays. This too is a big topic and I'm sure there is much to be learned.
- More about adjective comparison?
I think we have comparative declensions figured out, but verbifying and other usage issues might still offer some surprises.
- What does -o- indicate in all those -olat ending verbs?
I'm pretty content with my presumed understanding of the /-o-/ thing now. If I'm correct, it's an activity level enhancer, pretty much.
- O's of the negative, do we maybe still misuse them somewhere?
We've made some corrections on the negatives since this was asked. Maybe this issue is already wholly solved.
- How much does verb transitivity figure into grammar?
I thought verb transitivity might be a big thing in dothraki, but now it seems that transitivity might be even somewhat fluid thing. The verb form changes are better understood with other concepts, and transitivity changes are just a secondary effect.
- Are morphological distinctions really sometimes lost in inflections?
It seems the answer is yes and no.
Both /-olat/ and /-at/ do indeed end up vos /-ok/ when appropriately inflected, so verbs evidently sometimes lose the meaning difference attained through morphology.
On the other hand, at least in some cases nouns have irregular accusatives just to mark the difference to morphological parent-word.
- More about syllabification and stress?
I think we've learned quite a lot about this topic. Some details are fuzzy, but not that much anymore.
- How do participles work?
I think we know now. At least as well as could be reasonably expected. I
don't think we just know much anything. There are always possible irregularities, syntax tricks, limits in scope ... stuff
- Avalent verbs?
Just ...no. Some potential avalencies are dealt with passive.
Not much progress, unsolved:
- Nominative of certain nouns. (Possible missing vowels?)
- How well are the adjectives in the vocab suffixed and marked?
The general goal of getting the vocab error-free is still far away. I know David has had a look at the page, but I don't think he's done any comprehensive spell-checking.
- Verbs with l-ending stem: what's the deal?
Minor detail. Probably there's nothing interesting about them. We just haven't asked.
- How analogous is the use of tenses with english tenses?
Well, this would be a nice topic to bring up at the irc chat.
- Details on adjective declension?
No progress, but this too was a clarification plea on a topic we have already mostly tamed.
- How do special verb inflections and prepositions work with passives?
I think this is part of much bigger question. I'll expand on my next post.
- How about secondary stress?
This is veeery minor detail. A bit silly question, actually, I think.
Notable progress or solved:
- Non-nominative declensions of all pronouns?
I'm not entirely sure, what things count as pronouns (memra, maybe?), but this seems to be at least mostly solved.
- More about animacy of nouns?
I think we have pretty good grasp of animacy nowadays. This too is a big topic and I'm sure there is much to be learned.
- More about adjective comparison?
I think we have comparative declensions figured out, but verbifying and other usage issues might still offer some surprises.
- What does -o- indicate in all those -olat ending verbs?
I'm pretty content with my presumed understanding of the /-o-/ thing now. If I'm correct, it's an activity level enhancer, pretty much.
- O's of the negative, do we maybe still misuse them somewhere?
We've made some corrections on the negatives since this was asked. Maybe this issue is already wholly solved.
- How much does verb transitivity figure into grammar?
I thought verb transitivity might be a big thing in dothraki, but now it seems that transitivity might be even somewhat fluid thing. The verb form changes are better understood with other concepts, and transitivity changes are just a secondary effect.
- Are morphological distinctions really sometimes lost in inflections?
It seems the answer is yes and no.
Both /-olat/ and /-at/ do indeed end up vos /-ok/ when appropriately inflected, so verbs evidently sometimes lose the meaning difference attained through morphology.
On the other hand, at least in some cases nouns have irregular accusatives just to mark the difference to morphological parent-word.
- More about syllabification and stress?
I think we've learned quite a lot about this topic. Some details are fuzzy, but not that much anymore.
- How do participles work?
I think we know now. At least as well as could be reasonably expected. I
don't think we just know much anything. There are always possible irregularities, syntax tricks, limits in scope ... stuff
- Avalent verbs?
Just ...no. Some potential avalencies are dealt with passive.
Not much progress, unsolved:
- Nominative of certain nouns. (Possible missing vowels?)
- How well are the adjectives in the vocab suffixed and marked?
The general goal of getting the vocab error-free is still far away. I know David has had a look at the page, but I don't think he's done any comprehensive spell-checking.
- Verbs with l-ending stem: what's the deal?
Minor detail. Probably there's nothing interesting about them. We just haven't asked.
- How analogous is the use of tenses with english tenses?
Well, this would be a nice topic to bring up at the irc chat.
- Details on adjective declension?
No progress, but this too was a clarification plea on a topic we have already mostly tamed.
- How do special verb inflections and prepositions work with passives?
I think this is part of much bigger question. I'll expand on my next post.
- How about secondary stress?
This is veeery minor detail. A bit silly question, actually, I think.