Author Topic: The Dictionary Thread  (Read 26701 times)

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Qvaak

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2011, 04:52:24 pm »
Quote
I just finished a big update of the dictionary. If anyone finds any mistakes or anything that looks weird let me know in this thread.
With a cursory read through I find some rather trivial oddities to note:
Dozgosor is empty. According to vocabulary it should be "ni. enemy, slang for ones own khalasar."
Athdavrazar and sajat lack translation. Athdavrazar isn't even in our wiki vocabulary. We have plenty of untranslated words, so I'm guessing these don't belong into dictionary (yet).
Origin stamps have some oddities too. Firesof is marked for fire (well, could be). Firikh has Dp instead of DP. Menat has DP at the end instead of following the IPA phonetics. Movelat lacks origin.

The IPA instruction probably need both more knowledge and some judgement calls. Should diphthongs be marked? How do the doubled consonants function and how should that be marked (I'm pretty sure ajjalan at least isn't IPA'ed in a sensible way ... but we already have a discussion about doubled consonants at hrakkar-thread)? What amounts to consonant cluster that turns r into tap? Rh starts are generally marked as trills; rhaes is marked a trill, but Rhaes Andahli with a tap; Hr-starts are already all marked as taps.

Critique notwithstanding, I'd like to see IPA instructions on wiki too. I'm even prepared to copy them there myself, but as ripping things from pdf-file is somewhat toilsome and all in all I believe you, ingsve, could do it ten times better, I hope they'll just magically manifest into wiki vocabulary.

Quote
So what's the general purpose for it? So that people who have downloaded a copy of the dictionary can easily see how up to date it still is?
Well, it's also a consentrated commentary on how the editor views his/her product. 0.x tells us that the editor considers the definite version to be still oncoming. x.0 tells us that the version is in some big way definite, but also that the bug fixes are still to come... etc. etc.
hehh. It'd mostly be a curiosity, but why not.

Quote
after a q there is a vowel change.
/i/ > [e]; /e/ > [E]; /o/ > [O ]; /a/ > [A] / q_

argh. I had totally missed that. And just the moment before the Dothraki seemed so straightforwardly phonetical in it's writing.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2011, 06:13:22 pm by Qvaak »
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ingsve

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2011, 07:53:11 pm »
Quote
I just finished a big update of the dictionary. If anyone finds any mistakes or anything that looks weird let me know in this thread.
With a cursory read through I find some rather trivial oddities to note:
Dozgosor is empty. According to vocabulary it should be "ni. enemy, slang for ones own khalasar."
Athdavrazar and sajat lack translation. Athdavrazar isn't even in our wiki vocabulary. We have plenty of untranslated words, so I'm guessing these don't belong into dictionary (yet).
Origin stamps have some oddities too. Firesof is marked for fire (well, could be). Firikh has Dp instead of DP. Menat has DP at the end instead of following the IPA phonetics. Movelat lacks origin.

The IPA instruction probably need both more knowledge and some judgement calls. Should diphthongs be marked? How do the doubled consonants function and how should that be marked (I'm pretty sure ajjalan at least isn't IPA'ed in a sensible way ... but we already have a discussion about doubled consonants at hrakkar-thread)? What amounts to consonant cluster that turns r into tap? Rh starts are generally marked as trills; rhaes is marked a trill, but Rhaes Andahli with a tap; Hr-starts are already all marked as taps.

Critique notwithstanding, I'd like to see IPA instructions on wiki too. I'm even prepared to copy them there myself, but as ripping things from pdf-file is somewhat toilsome and all in all I believe you, ingsve, could do it ten times better, I hope they'll just magically manifest into wiki vocabulary.

Ah, a couple of those mistakes came from how I entered the words. Though the translation for athdavrazar is still unclear so it shouldn't be in there yet I guess. It means something like usefulness or some other noun that derives from being useful.

What we know is that /r/ is pronounced as a trill in the beginning and end of words and as a tap anywhere else. Lajaki had a lot of the trills marked as taps but I've gone over and changed the ones I found but some apparently slipped by.

I'll ask David about how he would IPA the double consonants properly to clear it up.

As for adding IPA to the wiki I guess that could be done but that is a big job as well so it will have to come when it comes.
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Lajaki

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2011, 01:44:10 am »
Yeah, I didn't do it because it was so small to begin with. I was going to start when the series began, but forgot to. Now might be a good time to do that?

Qvaak

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2011, 08:24:23 pm »
Quote
As for adding IPA to the wiki I guess that could be done but that is a big job as well so it will have to come when it comes.

Done. If they are too cumbersome, just load the backup.
Mostly I just copied the dictionary, but did a few adjustments.
* Stresses are copied by hand, so I'm sure I missed one or two and misplaced one or two more.
* With doubled r's I went for a trill. Not that I could defend my decision in any sensible way. Doubled taps just feel like an odd idea. As far as I understand taps are pretty much just trills that don't have time to get trilled.
* In an ill-informed attempt for improvement, jj turned into dd͡ʒ and cch into tt͡ʃ. Might well be d͡ʒʒ and t͡ʃʃ. I think Irri did dd͡ʒ.
* I turned ziqwehelat into /ziqwehe'lat/. You'd think the w would reset the effect if generally the effect resets after the immediate vowel.
* Left dental marks off. Not because I wouldn't believe in them but because they didn't sit nicely under their respective letters. So now the instructions are a wee bit more imprecise.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 08:29:37 pm by Qvaak »
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ingsve

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 04:26:21 pm »
The dictionary is updated with the info from todays IRC chat etc.
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Hrakkar

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2011, 12:56:58 am »
Very nicely done! (couldn't figure out how to say that in Dothraki. They don't have  alot of words for postive things...yet!)  Version number (but it is missing on the front page of the English-Dothraki dictionary), changelog, up to date! Not much more to ask for.

Thank you very much!
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ingsve

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2011, 01:24:10 am »
Very nicely done! (couldn't figure out how to say that in Dothraki. They don't have  alot of words for postive things...yet!)  Version number (but it is missing on the front page of the English-Dothraki dictionary), changelog, up to date! Not much more to ask for.

Thank you very much!

Hmm, there seems to be something strange in the coding so that it doesn't take the title from the same entry as for the other dictionary. It's the same with the Author. I can't seem to change it even when I change the field that is suppose to change it.
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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2011, 02:14:17 am »
Very nicely done! (couldn't figure out how to say that in Dothraki. They don't have  alot of words for postive things...yet!)  Version number (but it is missing on the front page of the English-Dothraki dictionary), changelog, up to date! Not much more to ask for.

Thank you very much!

Hmm, there seems to be something strange in the coding so that it doesn't take the title from the same entry as for the other dictionary. It's the same with the Author. I can't seem to change it even when I change the field that is suppose to change it.

Does this dictionary also use the 'Eana Eltu' system that was developed for Na`vi?
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ingsve

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2011, 02:21:12 am »
Very nicely done! (couldn't figure out how to say that in Dothraki. They don't have  alot of words for postive things...yet!)  Version number (but it is missing on the front page of the English-Dothraki dictionary), changelog, up to date! Not much more to ask for.

Thank you very much!

Hmm, there seems to be something strange in the coding so that it doesn't take the title from the same entry as for the other dictionary. It's the same with the Author. I can't seem to change it even when I change the field that is suppose to change it.

Does this dictionary also use the 'Eana Eltu' system that was developed for Na`vi?

Ya, pretty much.
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ingsve

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2011, 09:32:43 pm »
Updated the dictionary with some corrected IPA. Primary stresses are added to all words. We also learnt from David that words that end in -CCV have the stress on the penultimate syllable rather than the first so this was corrected for words like that.
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Izzi

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2011, 09:11:15 am »
I'm studying my index cards and I'm a little puzzled by the word ofrakhi. In the dictionary the given meaning is will not touch, will touch.

That would be will not touch with the use of the word vos, right?

Anha vos ofrakhi... I'm not too sure how to conjugate it either... (ofrakhat?)

Any feedback would be appreciated.
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Qvaak

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2011, 09:48:54 am »
That is, I think, an artefact from times when we knew less about verb conjugations. The verb is in infinite frakhat (you'll find it in the dictionary). Ofrakhi is a negative of second person singular future: frakhat -> frakhi -> afrakhi ->ofrakhi. It has been snatched from Peterson's short Dothraki lesson published at Making of Game of Thrones thingie at HBO website.

The interesting thing for me is, that it seems vos is not needed:

Quote
Certain other adverbs commonly occur directly after the verb. one such is the emphatic negative “vosecchi,” as shown below (first without, then with):

Yer ofrakhi sajoes mae.
“You will not touch her steed.”

Yer ofrakhi vosecchi sajoes mae!
“You will NEVER touch her steed!”

I hadn't noticed that before and did indeed think vos was always necessary for turning a verb into negative.
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Izzi

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2011, 11:48:04 am »
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That is, I think, an artefact from times when we knew less about verb conjugations. The verb is in infinite frakhat (you'll find it in the dictionary). Ofrakhi is a negative of second person singular future: frakhat -> frakhi -> afrakhi ->ofrakhi. It has been snatched from Peterson's short Dothraki lesson published at Making of Game of Thrones thingie at HBO website.

ahh.. I understand now. Thanks!
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ingsve

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2011, 10:37:43 am »
That is, I think, an artefact from times when we knew less about verb conjugations. The verb is in infinite frakhat (you'll find it in the dictionary). Ofrakhi is a negative of second person singular future: frakhat -> frakhi -> afrakhi ->ofrakhi. It has been snatched from Peterson's short Dothraki lesson published at Making of Game of Thrones thingie at HBO website.

The interesting thing for me is, that it seems vos is not needed:

Quote
Certain other adverbs commonly occur directly after the verb. one such is the emphatic negative “vosecchi,” as shown below (first without, then with):

Yer ofrakhi sajoes mae.
“You will not touch her steed.”

Yer ofrakhi vosecchi sajoes mae!
“You will NEVER touch her steed!”

I hadn't noticed that before and did indeed think vos was always necessary for turning a verb into negative.

Yes, you're right. That's an old entry that I've missed that it's still there...It's gone by the next update.

Ya, that sentence is a bit strange. I think that's the only place where I haven't seen a vos so perhaps it's a mistake by David.

He has said that verbs only agree with negation it isn't marked by it so that would indicate that you do need something that does indicate the negation itself.
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ingsve

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Re: The Dictionary Thread
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2011, 02:44:51 pm »
I just updated the dictionary with the words from the latest chat and other sources. Let me know in this thread if you find any mistakes or words that are missing. I also removed all the stresses like was talked about on the IRC to make it easier to read.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly