Author Topic: Help for translation  (Read 8296 times)

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Havazhyol

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Help for translation
« on: September 29, 2012, 01:38:48 am »
Hi,

I'm willing to learn and speak Dorthaki (much more classy when yelling at someone then Sindarin ^^ )

I sought for a topic of this kind and did'nt find it, so I launch this one.

I try to define a translation for "unicorn".
Since Dothraki would give a description of this beast, i went along with " Hrazef ma at chiva " which liiteraly means "horse with one horn", i used "one", for I couldn't find a translation for "unique".

Many thanks to those who will help and sorry if this topic is a double.

Fonas chek, Dothraki vezhven!
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ingsve

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2012, 02:38:38 am »
Hi,

I'm willing to learn and speak Dorthaki (much more classy when yelling at someone then Sindarin ^^ )

I sought for a topic of this kind and did'nt find it, so I launch this one.

I try to define a translation for "unicorn".
Since Dothraki would give a description of this beast, i went along with " Hrazef ma at chiva " which liiteraly means "horse with one horn", i used "one", for I couldn't find a translation for "unique".

Many thanks to those who will help and sorry if this topic is a double.

Fonas chek, Dothraki vezhven!

Yes, that's one way of doing it though the preposition ma assigns the ablative case so the phrase would be something like Hrazef ma at chivoon.

You could also create it as a compound word like for example hrazefchiva which would mean something like hornhorse.

BTW, the word unicorn does not come from the word unique. It's from the latin word "unicornis" which is a compound of "unus" meaning one and "cornus" meaning horn.
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Havazhyol

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2012, 03:43:38 am »
Thank you, Admiral. (It's a twap!!!) I think 'ill go with the compounded word.
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Najahho

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 06:36:17 pm »
Then you could translate "unicornus" literally as "atchiva", right? translating each component. Maybe an ending here would be needed? Is there an ending that's used to create animal names from other words?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 06:38:50 pm by Niqqo »
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ingsve

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2012, 11:55:28 am »
Then you could translate "unicornus" literally as "atchiva", right? translating each component. Maybe an ending here would be needed? Is there an ending that's used to create animal names from other words?

I'm not sure how compounding works when you use a numeral. It might be that at would take on a different form when you use it in a compound which is why I left that option off for now. I was planning on asking David about that on the next IRC chat.
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Hrakkar

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2012, 12:51:35 pm »
And that will be an interesting question to get an answer about. Number/noun combinations have many practical uses.

I would personally go with hrazefchiva. It is much more descriptive than atchiva, and is a term far more likely to be coined by a Dothraki.

There are no special rules I am aware of for animal names, and the names in Dothraki run the gamut. About the only special rule I would think of is to be aware of animacy. At this point, only David can for certain indicate if a word will be animate or inanimate. In general, if a word has an animate ending, it is most likely animate. Some words with inanimate endings are still animate (Hrakkar is a good example).

I wonder if hrazefchiva would be animate? I think unicorns are mentioned a few places in ASOIAF.
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ingsve

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2012, 02:28:01 pm »
And that will be an interesting question to get an answer about. Number/noun combinations have many practical uses.

I would personally go with hrazefchiva. It is much more descriptive than atchiva, and is a term far more likely to be coined by a Dothraki.

There are no special rules I am aware of for animal names, and the names in Dothraki run the gamut. About the only special rule I would think of is to be aware of animacy. At this point, only David can for certain indicate if a word will be animate or inanimate. In general, if a word has an animate ending, it is most likely animate. Some words with inanimate endings are still animate (Hrakkar is a good example).

I wonder if hrazefchiva would be animate? I think unicorns are mentioned a few places in ASOIAF.

No, hrazefchiva is inanimate since it's a compound word. The rules we do have for animacy seem to be exception-free so I see no reason for it not to follow the rule of other compounds.
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Havazhyol

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2012, 12:58:21 pm »
Wow that's what i call a reaction for a topic! (never thought i would lauch such a debate  ;D ) Thanks a lot guys and/or gals!

Now, for practicing the Dothraki I intend to translate texts or songs, but some of the words i have to translate are absents from the dictionnary whether not used by the Dothrakis in ASOIAF, and/or not created by David Peterson yet.

Here are some lacks i found, and tried to fill up :

- to care (for), to matter, to have interest in (someone or something)   ;  i thought to use the sentence "what I want/hope for" (fin zalak).
- to trust (someone or something)   ;  i thought the word "friend, trustee" (okeo) could be a good basis, if turned it to a verb (okeat / okelat...) or something this way.
- to open  ; same as "to trust" I thought the word opening, vulnerability, opportunity (ovrakh) and turning it to a verb.
- to close ; didn't found a way to deal with it.
- truth ; same process as the verb.
- all, every ; didn't found a way to deal with it.
- else  ;  i thought using "other" (eshna).
- forever  ; i went with  "for always" (ha ayyey).

If you have any comment and/or correction, be my guest.

Damn this language is fun  :P
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ingsve

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2012, 06:03:16 pm »
Wow that's what i call a reaction for a topic! (never thought i would lauch such a debate  ;D ) Thanks a lot guys and/or gals!

Now, for practicing the Dothraki I intend to translate texts or songs, but some of the words i have to translate are absents from the dictionnary whether not used by the Dothrakis in ASOIAF, and/or not created by David Peterson yet.

Here are some lacks i found, and tried to fill up :

- to care (for), to matter, to have interest in (someone or something)   ;  i thought to use the sentence "what I want/hope for" (fin zalak).
- to trust (someone or something)   ;  i thought the word "friend, trustee" (okeo) could be a good basis, if turned it to a verb (okeat / okelat...) or something this way.
- to open  ; same as "to trust" I thought the word opening, vulnerability, opportunity (ovrakh) and turning it to a verb.
- to close ; didn't found a way to deal with it.
- truth ; same process as the verb.
- all, every ; didn't found a way to deal with it.
- else  ;  i thought using "other" (eshna).
- forever  ; i went with  "for always" (ha ayyey).



If you have any comment and/or correction, be my guest.

Damn this language is fun  :P

- to care (for), to matter, to have interest in (someone or something)   ;  i thought to use the sentence "what I want/hope for" (fin zalak).

This might be a good intermediate fix but it feels like a concept that there ought to be a more specific word for. It's something to ask David about. Also don't forget the pronoun I = anha. Dothraki is not a language where you can drop the pronoun at will so it should be fin anha zalak.

- to trust (someone or something)   ;  i thought the word "friend, trustee" (okeo) could be a good basis, if turned it to a verb (okeat / okelat...) or something this way.

Respect is something central to the Dothraki so it might work to use chomat + allative case (to respect someone) as a substitute for trusting someone. Since okeo is an animate word I think the stem always includes the last /o/ as well so to make it into a verb would probably be something like okeolat. BTW there is a nice backstory behind the word okeo: http://www.dothraki.com/2012/05/vojjor-ershe-ma-sashi/

- to open  ; same as "to trust" I thought the word opening, vulnerability, opportunity (ovrakh) and turning it to a verb.

I'm pretty sure there must be some other word for "to open" since ovrakh has a distinctly different origin which can be seen here: http://www.dothraki.com/2012/06/hash-yer-ast-fin/

- to close ; didn't found a way to deal with it.

Probably also a specific word needed. Possibly derived from the word for open whatever that turns out to be.

- truth ; same process as the verb.

- all, every ; didn't found a way to deal with it.

"all, every" is simply ei. It's in the vocabulary. Or is there a specific sentence where you don't know how to use it?

- else  ;  i thought using "other" (eshna).

eshna is probably a good choice depending on the context in the sentence.

- forever  ; i went with  "for always" (ha ayyey).

Forever and always are synonyms so you don't need to add "for". For example "I will live with you forever"/"I will live with you always".

I'll send some of these words to David to see what he says about them.
"I just need to rest, that’s all, to rest and sleep some, and maybe die a little" – Samwell Tarly

ingsve

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2012, 07:48:18 pm »
I got some translations from David:

mra zhor + ablative= expression with the meaning "to be important to someone" example arakh mra zhor lajakoon "The sword is important to the warrior." It literally means "The sword is within the heart of the warrior".
azzhonathat=the open, to expose
qisi= close (near)
ayyeyaan or ayyey= forever
shillat=to trust someone
athshillar=trust
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Havazhyol

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2012, 11:14:23 am »
Awesome, many thanks to you. This will greatfully help in my learning process.

Edit : for the verb "to close" , is there a negative derivation that should be used, as vos, which should lead to vos azzhonathat (+ negative declination, of course)
or should a more specific word be used (and so, asked to Khal David?)

One more thing : the verb "To care" should be used as "to matter for"? ex : "I don't care about this"  = "I don't matter about this" ?

Edit 2 : Than i'll patiently wait for it.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 01:00:58 pm by NagromNoruas »
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ingsve

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2012, 12:07:12 pm »
Awesome, many thanks to you. This will greatfully help in my learning process.

Edit : for the verb "to close" , is there a negative derivation that should be used, as vos, which should lead to vos azzhonathat (+ negative declination, of course)
or should a more specific word be used (and so, asked to Khal David?)

One more thing : the verb "To care" should be used as "to matter for"? ex : "I don't care about this"  = "I don't matter about this" ?

David didn't have a word for "to care" so he would need some more time to come up with something.
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Najahho

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2012, 08:25:52 pm »
I was going to say that "always" and "forever" are not exactly synonyms. For instance, in Spanish you have "siempre" but also "por siempre", which are used in different circumstances. In the case of the examples you give:

"I will live with you forever"/"I will live with you always".

you have in spanish "Viviré contigo siempre" and "Viviré contigo por siempre"... the meaning is different, albeit very subtly.
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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2012, 08:27:31 pm »
Awesome, many thanks to you. This will greatfully help in my learning process.

Edit : for the verb "to close" , is there a negative derivation that should be used, as vos, which should lead to vos azzhonathat (+ negative declination, of course)
or should a more specific word be used (and so, asked to Khal David?)

One more thing : the verb "To care" should be used as "to matter for"? ex : "I don't care about this"  = "I don't matter about this" ?

Edit 2 : Than i'll patiently wait for it.

Well... "not to open" is not exactly the same as "to close"... you are just not opening... but you are not in fact closing.
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Havazhyol

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Re: Help for translation
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 04:26:21 am »
Thank you for all your answers.

I now have another question for translation, it is kind of a signature :

I send/throw you a thousand soft kisses, my queen.  -->  Anha ovvethak shafka dalen zoqwa tashi, Khaleesi anni.

Is this correct?



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